building relationships of trust

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_Yoda

Re: building relationships of trust

Post by _Yoda »

bcspace wrote:One of my sisters, at around 18-19 years old and at the time I was on my mission, had a non member boyfriend. He had the discussions in our house and the missionaries put all kinds of pressure on him in addition to the knowledge that my sister wasn't going to marry a nonmember. He was baptized but was never active and so of course my sister didn't marry him. I'm very sure my sister emphasized that he should not join simply because of her but also because he truly believed. I'm also sure the missionaries did not emphasize this because my sister and parents reported all the happenings and sales tactics being applied. And no, my sister did not go out with him simply to get a convert. He pursued her.

About half of my baptisms were of this type of scenario, a non member boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse. However, we strongly emphasized that they should NOT JOIN unless they TRULY BELIEVED and we would NOT BAPTIZE them until they witnessed unto us by attending Church consistently week after week, living the word of wisdom, law of chastity, and paying their tithing. I ruffled many feathers on this in the Church and my mission president as well, but ultimately, in my last year, my companionships were always among the top baptizing and I can still account more than 20 years later for all but one of my baptisms for current activity in the Church.

I can remember teaching one of the vice presidents of Herbalife. He had an LDS girlfriend. Very nice people. But I had a bad feeling about it and I did not see fruits meet for repentance. He did not come to Church consistently, he still essentially lived with his girlfriend even though he moved out. I knew he still drank alcohol from time to time and thought it not to be a violation of the WoW. I'm fairly certain he never paid his tithing but I can't prove it. He listened politely to the discussions but always changed the subject as soon as possible. My comp wanted to baptize him badly. I said no. However, I wasn't DL or ZL at the time and so, despite my strong objections to them and to the MP, he was baptized. He was immediately inactive and I knew this because I stayed in the area for several months after. Who knows but what he became active and believing at some time in the future or will but I think it unlikely. My comp saw the light and apologized to me. This was early in my mission when I became adamant about real belief and activity BEFORE baptism. I remain so to this day and still ruffle feathers about it.

I have stories with better endings. Samoan son of a Methodist minister. Married a Mormon girl. Took the discussions. He loved chess. We would go to play chess and have a discussion. He proved his belief with activity and obedience. Was baptized. Later moved to Hawaii and become a Stake president.

Young Jehovah's witness. Separated by distance from his BYU girlfriend. We taught him. We expounded the scriptures. I can credit Jesus The Christ by Talmadge for helping us with answers to his questions including one (about the resurrection) that proved to him we were the real deal. He came to Church every Sunday. Was baptised. Wanted to be a Seventy (when they still had Seventy's in the wards) so he could do what JW's do only LDS style. Became a Seventy and a WML. Girlfriend came back from BYU. They married in the temple. Still married to this day. 4 kids.

Young man about 22. Excommunicated for chastity. Had BYU girlfriend. Was the son of the missionaries who served in Kenya and who baptized there my current companion and his family. Taught him. He repented and became obedient and active. Baptized. Married the BYU girl in the temple. 6 kids and a grandfather already.

Young man. Croatian-Jew (less than 500 live there today). Time of trouble in the Balkan states but not yet open warfare. No Mormon girlfriend but a close LDS friend who was preparing for a mission. Took the discussions, went to Church consistently and committed to live the good life. Friend called on mission. Baptized. Married an Italian Mormon and still active today, one child. Gave his mother the Croatian language Book of Mormon (just excerpts at the time). She cherishes it but I don't think she has joined.

Single woman, mid twenties. Teacher. Actually fell in love with a missionary from a previous companionship. That companionship was transferred and we came in. Tough to teach her because all she could do was pine for that missionary she loved (and who very appropriately did not return her romantic love). It took several months but she finally came around. Church attendance consistently etc. etc. Baptized. The aforementioned elder attended her baptism and baptized her, but he had a girlfriend waiting at home. But by that time I think she grew up and realized what the Church is for and why we were there. Asked to be called on a mission. Was called to South Korea. Served honorably. Came home. Married in the temple. Two kids last I heard.

Two former homosexuals wanting to return to membership at the same time. Well, I can be reasonably sure one was former....Both have AIDS. Both very sick. The one was constantly depressed and thought God had punished him to the point of no hope. We tried our best with the love and forgiveness of Christ, but he died suddenly about 10 weeks after we starting teaching him. At no time did he bring forth fruits meet for repentance. He always said he would come to Church but never did despite our best efforts of offering rides and a we had some members lined up to befriend him but he rejected them. The other was always happy and upbeat despite the regular visits the hospital. He recognized and took advantage of the Atonement. He came to Church even when physically unable to do it himself with the member's help. While we were there, there was a mishap at the hospital with the X-ray source and a nurse rushed in to protect him as patient and handled the source. She later died of radiation poisoning. He survived (led vest helped I suppose). Was re-baptized. Lived until the early 2000's and finally passed away, still active and believing.

Many other experiences in the homosexual community as my companionship was specifically tasked to teach those wanting to come back. Many other great missionary experiences overall.


What a beautiful account of missionary work, BC! Thanks for sharing.
_Darth J
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Re: building relationships of trust

Post by _Darth J »

bcspace wrote:However, I wasn't DL or ZL at the time and so, despite my strong objections to them and to the MP, he was baptized.


Isn't it curious how so many defenses of the Church require the Church's teachings to be false? Like in this example, where bcspace's beautiful stance on genuine conversion requires people who had priesthood authority over him not to have their priesthood keys work, such that they would have had the same inspiration as bcspace that this person should not have been baptized.

We almost baptized a guy but right before the baptism, he came to us with this question: "Why does the Book of Mormon mention the word Steel?" We could not supply him with a good enough answer, despite our excellent relationship of trust, built during the previous 3 months. He would never see us again after that.


The answer is easy and is still true today. Absence of evidence is not scientific proof.


Absence of evidence is the most compelling reason not to believe a claim of fact. This is especially true when things do not appear where they would appear if a claimed fact is true. The Mopologist trope about absence of evidence/evidence of absence amounts to, "Well, I don't see a live triceratops in my kitchen, but that doesn't mean I can totally rule out the possibility."

Or, as Beastie has put it, not only is there no evidence of a Nephite civilization, there is no "Nephite-sized hole" for the apologetic argument from ignorance to be necessary.

What Joseph Smith saw and thought was steel is also reasonable.


Unfortunately, right off the bat your supposed explanation begs the question of why one should assume with no evidence whatsoever that the Book of Mormon is the product of a loose translation. Besides the statements of every single contemporary witness of how the Book of Mormon was purportedly translated, the way the Lord cut the Gordian Knot with the lost 116 pages presupposes a tight translation. D&C 10 says that the alleged evil men were going to alter the manuscript so that a re-translation would not match the original translation. This Satanic plot only makes sense if the translation was verbatim from the plates. If it was a loose translation, Satan would not need to inspire these evil men to alter the manuscript, because a priori the second manuscript would not have matched the first in a loose translation.

Of course as we now know, there is evidence of metal alloys in Mesoamerica at about the right time.


None of which are steel, and none of which metallurgy was done by a civilization that had any demonstrable contact with a substantial polity of Hebrews who practiced Christianity.

I never had trouble with the question. Your problem may have been not understanding science as well as I do to give you the ability to speak with confidence.


See: Dunning-Kruger Effect

It's really quite ironic that you think you were just too good of a missionary to rely on the sales techniques everyone else does, but you think you're a hero if you cobble together a bunch of question begging, fatuous reasoning, and unsupported ad hoc assertions, and then pretend that doing so makes a prima facie case for the Church's truth claims.
_The Mighty Builder
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Re: building relationships of trust

Post by _The Mighty Builder »

DAMN IT DARTH J

MONDAY IS COMING FASTER THAN YOU ARE WORKING!
_zeezrom
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Re: building relationships of trust

Post by _zeezrom »

bcspace wrote:...I never had trouble with the question. Your problem may have been not understanding science as well as I do to give you the ability to speak with confidence.

LOL!
Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

The Holy Sacrament.
_cafe crema
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Re: building relationships of trust

Post by _cafe crema »

Darth J wrote:
Absence of evidence is the most compelling reason not to believe a claim of fact.


+1000
_cafe crema
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Re: building relationships of trust

Post by _cafe crema »

bcspace wrote:

Young Jehovah's witness. Separated by distance from his BYU girlfriend. We taught him. We expounded the scriptures. I can credit Jesus The Christ by Talmadge for helping us with answers to his questions including one (about the resurrection) that proved to him we were the real deal.



I can see why Jesus The Christ by Talmadge would be helpful with a Jehovah's Witness.
_PrickKicker
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Re: building relationships of trust

Post by _PrickKicker »

Haha,

I remember that!!!
The 'Manipulation Pattern' (Cough, I mean 'Commitment Pattern.')

Prepare, Build Relationship of Trust.
Invite, Ask Closed questions.
Follow Up, Ask Leading questions them, Ask Why Not.
Resolve Concerns, Talk them round and round till they give up.

My MTC Prez counted and collected the sheets at the end of the session as he didn't want anyone outside the organisation to get hold of them as he believed that it was a form of brain washing!!!

England London, Manor House, Temple Grounds. April 1996.
PrickKicker: I used to be a Narrow minded, short sighted, Lying, Racist, Homophobic, Pious, Moron. But they were all behavioral traits that I had learnt through Mormonism.
_sock puppet
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Re: building relationships of trust

Post by _sock puppet »

zeezrom wrote:
bcspace wrote:...I never had trouble with the question. Your problem may have been not understanding science as well as I do to give you the ability to speak with confidence.

LOL!

ROTFLMAO--space, you do know of zeezrom's educational and vocational background, don't you?
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