Late Anger

[_Tchild]

Why must people try and compare things of this world with things that are not of this world? If you are grounded in this world then be happy with that. Why is your happiness influenced by my belief? It seems to me that you are in some way trying to justify your own decisions by denying mine. If you wish to be a worldly person then do so. Be the best worldly person on the planet. Embrace your decision and be happy with it. I am happy with my decision. It seems to me that you have a desire to feel that your decision is based on some measure of intelligence. If that is how you feel then pat yourself on the back and tell yourself how smart you are. But to infer that I am stupid and you are smart only exposes your lack of self confidence. If you truly knew that you made the best decision then what I think would not matter. But it does matter to you. One day you may experience true self confidence. But until that day I see that you will try and elevate yourself by lowering others. Your outward shell is strong but your inner man is a punk.

I can accept that, and I can respect that.

However, that is usually not how Mormon beliefs work. Usually, those Mormon beliefs are foisted onto others as if your (speaking generally here) subjective truth is really objective truth applicable to all, and that it ought to be my objective truth. For Mormon believers, mostly it is the other person, the non-Mormon person whose personal faith, belief and life direction are wanting if they have not accepted Mormonism and its priesthoods and truths the way that Mormons interpret things.

I can promise you that if Mormons expressed their beliefs they way you just did, this board would not exist, ex-members would mostly not exist and Mormons would scarcely have a critic in the world.

Think about that.

[_Stormy Waters]

Why must people try and compare things of this world with things that are not of this world? If you are grounded in this world then be happy with that. Why is your happiness influenced by my belief? It seems to me that you are in some way trying to justify your own decisions by denying mine. If you wish to be a worldly person then do so. Be the best worldly person on the planet. Embrace your decision and be happy with it. I am happy with my decision. It seems to me that you have a desire to feel that your decision is based on some measure of intelligence. If that is how you feel then pat yourself on the back and tell yourself how smart you are. But to infer that I am stupid and you are smart only exposes your lack of self confidence. If you truly knew that you made the best decision then what I think would not matter. But it does matter to you. One day you may experience true self confidence. But until that day I see that you will try and elevate yourself by lowering others. Your outward shell is strong but your inner man is a punk.

I'd like to contrast this with your opening post in this thread.

Maybe you people need to get a life. My God, find something great and get involved in it. Get excited about some new thing. Yes all churches are run by men and they are all screwed up. So what, what did you expect? Are you easily led by a fancy story? Are you so removed from reality? Did you expect heaven on earth? Have you not read a line of scripture? Just where in scripture does it say you will live the easy great life when you join a church? Have you not read the church history and the trials that the early members went through? Can't you see that it is exactly like the Jews in Jerusalem? Only in times of trouble did the Jews return to God. Give man the good life and he wanders off. The church wandered off. They all do. Just what were your expectations? Just like the church which uses money in ways not in line with the original intent should we use their error to manifest a larger error within us? I am sorry but all of this energy in anger should be redirected. Find some new thing to believe in. Wrap yourself in your new life and leave the old behind. What a bunch of losers. Wake up!!

I will stay in the church because I believe in some of the doctrines. I also believe in the restored priesthood. But I have eyes and know that the administration of all churches are screwed up. Why would I connect the dots from bad behavior of leadership to my beliefs? Get a spine people. It seems to me you don't believe in anything and just blow in the wind. Find something to believe in.

DrW has wrapped himself in science. I disagree with that as a world view but I respect his strong faith in his decision. Scripture says be hot or cold. Christ can deal with that. But don't be lukewarm.

Hypocrisy thy name is you

[_Franktalk]

..... If you wish to be a worldly person then do so. Be the best worldly person on the planet. Embrace your decision and be happy with it........

I'd like to contrast this with your opening post in this thread.

Maybe you people need to get a life. My God, find something great and get involved in it. Get excited about some new thing........ Wrap yourself in your new life and leave the old behind........ Find something to believe in....... But don't be lukewarm.

Hypocrisy thy name is you

You will have to spell out what you mean here. I thought I was pretty consistent in saying get on with your life and find something new.

Added: The people on these boards are intelligent. They have talent. I have criticized the pity party as a waste of their time. Telling a quality person not to waste their time is so different than saying they are stupid. I think there is a difference between the two. Maybe you don't see a difference. If so then so be it.

[_jo1952]

I can accept that, and I can respect that.

However, that is usually not how Mormon beliefs work. Usually, those Mormon beliefs are foisted onto others as if your (speaking generally here) subjective truth is really objective truth applicable to all, and that it ought to be my objective truth. For Mormon believers, mostly it is the other person, the non-Mormon person whose personal faith, belief and life direction are wanting if they have not accepted Mormonism and its priesthoods and truths the way that Mormons interpret things.

I can promise you that if Mormons expressed their beliefs they way you just did, this board would not exist, ex-members would mostly not exist and Mormons would scarcely have a critic in the world.

Think about that.

Hello Tchild,

I think if all Mormons expressed their beliefs the way Franktalk did, it would not make much of a difference. They might be "accepted" more readily by mainstream Christendom. However, there are plenty of anti-Christians in the world; and for good reason if you consider all of the tragedy surrounding the actions of "christians". There are also websites created by christians for the purpose of fighting with other christians over interpretations of doctrine. This manifests plenty of critics amongst their own ranks.

People would just refocus their "anger" elsewhere. Life is difficult. Mankind manifests control over the free will of others all of the time; even though frequently their intentions were good. It is what we perceive as loss of our free will which often causes us to cry foul and to suffer, because we are unwilling to let go of our anger. Sometimes it can take a long time to forget and to heal from feelings of brokenness regardless of whether what we perceive is really what happened or not. What we believe is real or "truth" is the master of our actions. As we evolve and grow, we begin to perceive things differently; and our evolved belief in what is real or true still remains our master. Some of us believe in worldly reality/truth; the world is then at the root of being our master. Some of us believe in spiritual reality/truth; the spirit realm is then at the root of being our master.

Most of us have believed in both places as our reality/truth at some time or another. In fact, those who try to walk a faithful walk with the spirit realm are still grounded to the world by their physical/worldly body; which is most often a very confusing place to be. Likewise, it is confusing for those who try to walk a faithful walk with the world because their spirit being, which came from the spirit realm, now dwells in their tabernacle of flesh.

Blessings,

jo

[_Stormy Waters]

...If you truly knew that you made the best decision then what I think would not matter. But it does matter to you. One day you may experience true self confidence. But until that day I see that you will try and elevate yourself by lowering others. Your outward shell is strong but your inner man is a punk.

Maybe you people need to get a life. My God, find something great and get involved in it. Get excited about some new thing. Yes all churches are run by men and they are all screwed up. So what, what did you expect? Are you easily led by a fancy story? Are you so removed from reality?... Have you not read a line of scripture?.... What a bunch of losers. Wake up... Get a spine people. It seems to me you don't believe in anything and just blow in the wind. Find something to believe in.

Explain to me how you weren't 'trying to elevate yourself by lowering others.'

If you criticize others in this fashion, calling them 'losers', and telling them to 'get a spine.' Don't turn around and expect 'respect' and 'civility' for your beliefs. If you want to play hardball, by all means let's play hardball.

[_Themis]

You are describing blind faith, and I certainly agree that religious faith tends to be very blind, which brings up the issue again how one knows they are getting it right. You have just admitted you don't know. My faith is based on my faith. LOL So you have no foundation at all for your beliefs?

He sees the fruits of his faith in his life. How is that a "blind" faith?

My faith is based on faith. If I based faith on evidence it would not be faith. It is that simple Themis.

[_Themis]

I can accept that, and I can respect that.

However, that is usually not how Mormon beliefs work. Usually, those Mormon beliefs are foisted onto others as if your (speaking generally here) subjective truth is really objective truth applicable to all, and that it ought to be my objective truth. For Mormon believers, mostly it is the other person, the non-Mormon person whose personal faith, belief and life direction are wanting if they have not accepted Mormonism and its priesthoods and truths the way that Mormons interpret things.

I can promise you that if Mormons expressed their beliefs they way you just did, this board would not exist, ex-members would mostly not exist and Mormons would scarcely have a critic in the world.

Think about that.

Hello Tchild,

I think if all Mormons expressed their beliefs the way Franktalk did, it would not make much of a difference. They might be "accepted" more readily by mainstream Christendom. However, there are plenty of anti-Christians in the world; and for good reason if you consider all of the tragedy surrounding the actions of "christians". There are also websites created by christians for the purpose of fighting with other christians over interpretations of doctrine. This manifests plenty of critics amongst their own ranks.

People would just refocus their "anger" elsewhere. Life is difficult. Mankind manifests control over the free will of others all of the time; even though frequently their intentions were good. It is what we perceive as loss of our free will which often causes us to cry foul and to suffer, because we are unwilling to let go of our anger. Sometimes it can take a long time to forget and to heal from feelings of brokenness regardless of whether what we perceive is really what happened or not. What we believe is real or "truth" is the master of our actions. As we evolve and grow, we begin to perceive things differently; and our evolved belief in what is real or true still remains our master. Some of us believe in worldly reality/truth; the world is then at the root of being our master. Some of us believe in spiritual reality/truth; the spirit realm is then at the root of being our master.

Most of us have believed in both places as our reality/truth at some time or another. In fact, those who try to walk a faithful walk with the spirit realm are still grounded to the world by their physical/worldly body; which is most often a very confusing place to be. Likewise, it is confusing for those who try to walk a faithful walk with the world because their spirit being, which came from the spirit realm, now dwells in their tabernacle of flesh.

Blessings,

jo

In the US there are probably more anti-atheist and anti Muslims then anti-christian. We need to keep a proper perspective here. Most here are not out protesting other religions or knocking on your door trying to force you to change your beliefs. This is just a forum that discusses LDS related issues and ideas. Sure things can get a little heated at times, and we need to remember that we are all just people doing what we think is right. I don't even talk religion with other people unless they really want to.

[_jo1952]

....People would just refocus their "anger" elsewhere. Life is difficult. Mankind manifests control over the free will of others all of the time; even though frequently their intentions were good. It is what we perceive as loss of our free will which often causes us to cry foul and to suffer, because we are unwilling to let go of our anger. Sometimes it can take a long time to forget and to heal from feelings of brokenness regardless of whether what we perceive is really what happened or not. What we believe is real or "truth" is the master of our actions. As we evolve and grow, we begin to perceive things differently; and our evolved belief in what is real or true still remains our master. Some of us believe in worldly reality/truth; the world is then at the root of being our master. Some of us believe in spiritual reality/truth; the spirit realm is then at the root of being our master.

Most of us have believed in both places as our reality/truth at some time or another. In fact, those who try to walk a faithful walk with the spirit realm are still grounded to the world by their physical/worldly body; which is most often a very confusing place to be. Likewise, it is confusing for those who try to walk a faithful walk with the world because their spirit being, which came from the spirit realm, now dwells in their tabernacle of flesh.

In the US there are probably more anti-atheist and anti Muslims then anti-christian. We need to keep a proper perspective here. Most here are not out protesting other religions or knocking on your door trying to force you to change your beliefs. This is just a forum that discusses LDS related issues and ideas. Sure things can get a little heated at times, and we need to remember that we are all just people doing what we think is right. I don't even talk religion with other people unless they really want to.

Hello Themis,

I agree as far as the USA is concerned. But we are not the entire earth. Actually, I think that much of the anger that would be re-focused, would go against the atheists and Muslims. Our anger would grow from imagined fears of the damage atheists and Muslims could do to us.

Indeed, we are all just people doing what we think is right. Too often we cross the line and expect, or demand, that others agree with us. In frustration we lash out and begin to attack the person and not the belief; basically shooting the messenger.

I will talk more frequently about "religion" with others than I will about other extremely emotional and personal issues such as politics; unless, of course, I discover we are like-minded about major issues. Even then, I try to refrain from attacking others as opposed to attacking ideas and philosophies. This is where I find that I am reminding myself that others are God's spirit children made in His image. It really does help diffuse negative feelings, and encourages my endeavours to love others.

Blessings,

jo

[_Kishkumen]

My faith is based on faith. If I based faith on evidence it would not be faith. It is that simple Themis.

Yeah, I did read that.

[_DrW]

DrW has wrapped himself in science. I disagree with that as a world view but I respect his strong faith in his decision. Scripture says be hot or cold. Christ can deal with that. But don't be lukewarm.

Franktalk,

Accepting the scientific method as the best (and only reliable) means of gaining objective and useful knowledge does not involve faith.

As you have so eloquently stated, faith is belief without evidence. Since science is based on evidence, it is sort of the opposite of faith, or faith based religion.

So, when you say that I have strong "faith" in my decision to rely on the scientific method as the source of useful objective knowledge, you are simply projecting.

Faith has nothing whatsoever to do with the way I function or view the world. To claim it does is to demonstrate a lack of understanding of some of the realities outside of your fantasy world.

Quite frankly, when I see a statement such as the one below. I am extremely grateful that the number of people on Earth with such worldview is limited.

My faith is based on faith. If I based faith on evidence it would not be faith. It is that simple Themis.

This kind of belief system is what humankind relied on when the world was filled with invisible demons that caused illness and death before germs and viruses and genetic disorders were known.

You are still one of those people, Franktalk. You believe in a satan and a god that can practice magic for the benefit or ill of humankind.

Science has taught us that there is no need for magic, there is no satan, no demons, no gods. There is no need for them. These things are the product of human superstition, fear and ignorance. In other words, they are the product of faith.

Do you really believe that anything you happen to feel strongly about is objectively true?

Does convincing yourself to feel strongly enough about something make it objectively true?

People who believe like you apparently do are a danger to the human race. That is not an overstatement. If you would were to come to where I live now, I could introduce you to some people who are just like you. And by doing so, could demonstrate the truth of this statement beyond any doubt to you within a day or two.

People who say "My faith is based on faith" should stop for a minute and think about what they have really said.
___________________________

Your instantly classic statement on "faith based faith" has found its way to my signature line with, proper attribution. If you would rather not have it there, just let me know and I will remove it.