Sethbag wrote: Well, here's exhibit f*****g A my friends: Mooseman. The man who is willing to bring his love of God to the fray and do whatever he has to, to including killing someone if they get in the way of executing God's will.
You would not kill someone for God obviously. You have no love for him. Would you kill someone for your wife, child, brother? If needful? hmm?
If I saw God cowering in a shopping mall parking lot late at night with a gunman about to pull the trigger, you are damn right I would kill for God. No way would I let God take a bullet from a common thug.
Otherwise, God wouldn't need me to kill for him. As for my family...who lack immortality, all-power, omniscience, and a perfected resurrected body that cannot be killed, and who do not live on a yonder planet that orbits Kolob, where harm can never enter....they just might.
Mooseman wrote:Let me just say that I would never do nothing rash because some yokel said so. If you could imagine actually knowing God and HE says do it then the test is truly on. Not just thinking so. It has to have credence, clear as crystal, with an exalted purpose that constrains the soul to act. Like Nephi.
So...............what about killing Laban, now that you understand better? Of course you probably do not understand any better. That that dumbness thing I was talking about.
Mooseman wrote:
Sethbag wrote:Mooseman, people with crystal clear understanding and direct communications with God are a dime a dozen in this world. Take a number.
Name two. Your just sayin'. That's what goes on here. Lot's of just sayin'
Here are two: Ron and Dan Lafferty. You guys all seem to have the same philosophy -- they just found their "exalted purpose that constrains the soul to act," and you haven't.
"Thus saith the Lord unto my servants the prophets," Ron wrote. "It is my will and commandment that ye remove the following individuals in order that my work might go forward. For they have truly become obstacles in my path and I will not allow my work to be stopped. First thy brother's wife Brenda and her baby, then Chloe Low and then Richard Stowe. And it is my will that they be removed in rapid succession."
On the afternoon of July 24, 1984, Ron, 42, and Dan, 36, set out to fulfill the revelation. In a battered green station wagon, they drove to Allen and Brenda's American Fork duplex, carrying with them a sawed-off shotgun, a .30-30 Winchester, a .270 deer rifle and two pearl-handled knives. They would use only the knives.
On the afternoon of July 24, 1984, Ron, 42, and Dan, 36, set out to fulfill the revelation. In a battered green station wagon, they drove to Allen and Brenda's American Fork duplex, carrying with them a sawed-off shotgun, a .30-30 Winchester, a .270 deer rifle and two pearl-handled knives. They would use only the knives.
"Only a pimp from a cheap New Orleans whorehouse would carry a pearl-handled pistol"--or knife, for that matter. Patton, 1970 motion picture. It seems Francis Ford Coppola (the screen writer) knew the kind of pimps that the Lafferty brothers were. Pearl-handled knives? Pimping "for god"?
No--just plain old murder, like Nephi did to Laban.
Racer wrote:Forget Book of Mormon anachronisms, DNA, lack of archeologic evidence, and blatant KJV plagerisms. Laban's death gives the Book of Mormon a black eye in credibility.
1. Dude is ****faced and passed out. If you have ever dealt with anyone as inebriated as Laban was described in the Book of Mormon, you would know that it wouldn't take too much effort or protest to disrobe Laban. No murder necessary.
2. Which of the following scenerios is less likely to trigger an all out manhunt for Nephi and his brothers in the morning?
A. Laban wakes up naked with a hangover and chalks it up to a night of hard partying. B. Laban's guards discover their master's naked, headless corpse in the street in a pool of blood and gore. The blood trail leads straight to the vault. "Hey, weren't Lehi's sons here last night causing a commotion about wanting Laban's plates?" The alarm is sounded, and its all hands on deck to apprehend these violent criminals.
3. If Nephi had to kill Laban, why not just strangle or smother him? He was incapacitated, so it would be simple. The human body contains 6 qts of blood. That is one hell of a mess. Are you telling me none of that blood sprayed all over Nephi or soaked Laban's clothes? So, Nephi put on those disgusting bloody clothes and Zoram didn't even flinch when what he thought was his boss approaching him with an ass load of congealed blood all over his body? Zoram: "Let me lead you to the vaults sir, nothing seems out of the ordinary here."
4. Nephi was commanded to kill Laban because according to God it is better to let one man perish than let a nation dwindle and perish in unbelief (1Nephi 4:13). If this was the case, why didn't God command Nephi to kill Laman and Lemuel? Because of the Lamanites, didn't the Nephites get wiped out and a whole nation perished and dwindled in unbelief? So, in the end killing Laban didn't prevent a nation from perishing and dwindling in unbelief. Didn't God forsee this? Oops, so much for omnipotence.
Hey... Does "in as far as it was translated correctly" work in this situation?
The right of Nephi to be THE king was also demonstrated in the killing of Laban. And when the Lord says IT he means it. We can suppose from his behavior that Laban was worthy of death many times over just as were the Amalekites.
1 Samuel 15 1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord. 2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 4 And Saul gathered the people together, and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand footmen, and ten thousand men of Judah. 5 And Saul came to a city of Amalek, and laid wait in the valley. 6 ¶ And Saul said unto the Kenites, Go, depart, get you down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them: for ye shewed kindness to all the children of Israel, when they came up out of Egypt. So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7 And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt. 8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword. 9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly. 10 ¶ Then came the word of the Lord unto Samuel, saying, 11 It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night. 12 And when Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning, it was told Samuel, saying, Saul came to Carmel, and, behold, he set him up a place, and is gone about, and passed on, and gone down to Gilgal. 13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be thou of the Lord: I have performed the commandment of the Lord. 14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear? 15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites: for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God; and the rest we have utterly destroyed. 16 Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what the Lord hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say on. 17 And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight, wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the Lord anointed thee king over Israel? 18 And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed. 19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the Lord, but didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the Lord? 20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me, and have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the Amalekites. 21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice unto the Lord thy God in Gilgal. 22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. 23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king. 24 ¶ And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have transgressed the commandment of the Lord, and thy words: because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. 25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord. 26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. 27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the skirt of his mantle, and it rent. 28 And Samuel said unto him, The Lord hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of thine, that is better than thou. 29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. 30 Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee, before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn again with me, that I may worship the Lord thy God. 31 So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the Lord. 32 ¶ Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said, Surely the bitterness of death is past. 33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord in Gilgal. 34 ¶ Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to Gibeah of Saul. 35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
I thought God didn't like kings and kingdoms...at least that is the impression parts of the Book of Mormon gives.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
And since it is not possible for man to know what this elusive Lord says, man cannot know what this Lord means. So it is useless. Now, if this Lord of yours manifest himself in a clear, unmistakable manner, spoke clearly, gave proof of his omniscience and omnipotence, then you'd have a point. But your scripture is just hearsay--objection sustained. Look to something that does not depend on circular reasoning or a priori assumptions not shared by those you are trying to convince.
Racer wrote:Forget Book of Mormon anachronisms, DNA, lack of archeologic evidence, and blatant KJV plagerisms. Laban's death gives the Book of Mormon a black eye in credibility.
1. Dude is ****faced and passed out. If you have ever dealt with anyone as inebriated as Laban was described in the Book of Mormon, you would know that it wouldn't take too much effort or protest to disrobe Laban. No murder necessary.
2. Which of the following scenerios is less likely to trigger an all out manhunt for Nephi and his brothers in the morning?
A. Laban wakes up naked with a hangover and chalks it up to a night of hard partying. B. Laban's guards discover their master's naked, headless corpse in the street in a pool of blood and gore. The blood trail leads straight to the vault. "Hey, weren't Lehi's sons here last night causing a commotion about wanting Laban's plates?" The alarm is sounded, and its all hands on deck to apprehend these violent criminals.
3. If Nephi had to kill Laban, why not just strangle or smother him? He was incapacitated, so it would be simple. The human body contains 6 qts of blood. That is one hell of a mess. Are you telling me none of that blood sprayed all over Nephi or soaked Laban's clothes? So, Nephi put on those disgusting bloody clothes and Zoram didn't even flinch when what he thought was his boss approaching him with an ass load of congealed blood all over his body? Zoram: "Let me lead you to the vaults sir, nothing seems out of the ordinary here."
4. Nephi was commanded to kill Laban because according to God it is better to let one man perish than let a nation dwindle and perish in unbelief (1Nephi 4:13). If this was the case, why didn't God command Nephi to kill Laman and Lemuel? Because of the Lamanites, didn't the Nephites get wiped out and a whole nation perished and dwindled in unbelief? So, in the end killing Laban didn't prevent a nation from perishing and dwindling in unbelief. Didn't God forsee this? Oops, so much for omnipotence.
Hey... Does "in as far as it was translated correctly" work in this situation?
Possibly, but then it would contradict that whole "most correct book" quote by Joseph Smith that is used ad nauseum.
krose wrote:It would be interesting if Gordon would explain how to differentiate between the "spirit" that told Nephi to behead Laban, and the "spirit" that told Dan Lafferty to kill his brother's wife and baby.
Both of them did the deed reluctantly, and both said they were commanded by God to do it, that it was a test of their faith, and that it had to be done to facilitate the Lord's higher purposes.
If, indeed, Lafferty heard a 'spirit', and not just blowing green smoke (cause he really just wanted to, or had too many marbles loose), then I would say one came from the Lord, while the other from down under...yet, both claiming it to be from the Lord. I will say both can't be right.
If you won't rely of the HG for spiritual guidance, then simply look at what took place in the two events. One, you have a family leaving Jerusalem before it is destroyed (which it was) trying to get G-d's word to teach subsequent generations. They attempt to get them from a man who robs them of their wealth and tries to kill them. For this, the Lord has him killed. Now, you have a couple brothers who try to force polygamy on their spouses, and the SIL prevents them (even though the Lord has forbidden polygamy at this time), so they kill her and her baby, claiming 'revelaton' (although the members of their school, who they try to get to carry out the orders, say no). Which seems more likely from G-d, and which doesn't?
It's a rhetorical question, by the way...
"Wo unto them that are wise in their own eyes and prudent in their own sight!" Isaiah 5:21
Molok wrote:Haha, are you serious? You really don't believe that humans today are bigger on average than a thousand years ago? You're a silly man, Gordon.