why me wrote:For David Whitmer to request his testimony be put on his tombstone after he died, he must have saw something. And for Oliver to bear his testimony to wife and daughter on his deathbed must mean that he experienced something. And Martin died faithful and gave his deathbed testimony too. How to explain it?
You have doubts and yet, these men had no doubts. They experienced something marvelous and it changed their lives. No doubts about what they experienced at all. Think about it.
How do you explain why three men out of billions went to their death believing in Mormonism? Really? That's the question?
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
"The record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one."
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Drifting wrote: How do you explain why three men out of billions went to their death believing in Mormonism? Really? That's the question?
These witnesses experienced something that changed their lives. They had a supernatural experience. And they never denied it. That is very powerful. On their deathbed as they were going to meet their maker they confirmed their experience. How to explain it?
It is really that simple.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Drifting wrote: How do you explain why three men out of billions went to their death believing in Mormonism? Really? That's the question?
These witnesses experienced something that changed their lives. They had a supernatural experience. And they never denied it. That is very powerful. On their deathbed as they were going to meet their maker they confirmed their experience. How to explain it?
It is really that simple.
No. These men claimed to have experienced something supernatural, which you choose to believe because of a feeling inside your tummy. They weren't consistent in how they described it. Despite what they claimed to have experienced they were still disenfranchised from the Church.
The points you make could equally apply to David Koresh, Warren Jeffs etc.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
why me: Stop derailing my thread. I have absolutely no desire to debate evidences for or against the veracity of the Church with you. It's a pointless exercise and I have thought long and hard about all of these issues, including the witnesses. That is not the question I asked in my OP. Thus far only Sethbag has actually responded to my question.
Drifting wrote: No. These men claimed to have experienced something supernatural, which you choose to believe because of a feeling inside your tummy. They weren't consistent in how they described it. Despite what they claimed to have experienced they were still disenfranchised from the Church.
Now drift...come close to the computer...I want to whisper something in your ear....that's right...come close...just a little closer...are you ready....I did not feel anything....I experienced something. And so did the witnesess. They did not feel what they saw. They experienced what they saw. And that experience stayed with them all their lives regardless of their station in or out of the church. True, just like many here, two of them became disenchanted with the LDS church and Joseph Smith. But they never denied their experience. Why? What happened on that day when they saw the plates and the angel?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Cicero wrote:why me: Stop derailing my thread. I have absolutely no desire to debate evidences for or against the veracity of the Church with you. It's a pointless exercise and I have thought long and hard about all of these issues, including the witnesses. That is not the question I asked in my OP. Thus far only Sethbag has actually responded to my question.
I recommend using the report button to report his posts as off topic so they can be moved to another thread. I believe the mods would likely honor your request.
Cicero wrote:why me: Stop derailing my thread. I have absolutely no desire to debate evidences for or against the veracity of the Church with you. It's a pointless exercise and I have thought long and hard about all of these issues, including the witnesses. That is not the question I asked in my OP. Thus far only Sethbag has actually responded to my question.
Sorry dude.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Cicero wrote: I am not necessarily really looking to regain my testimony and I do not know where my spirtual journey will lead me, but I am curious to hear from others that have been in a similar position, and to hear how things turned out for them.
If you are not looking to regain your testimony you are much better off leaving the church and let the chips fall where they may. However, if you ever wish to regain your testimony the witnesses are a good place to start. If you lost your testimony going to church will be painful and you will end up like consig mocking the people who are there, believing yourself more superior to them. Not good. So, come out, tell one and all that you have no desire to regain your testimony and stop attending.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Stormy Waters wrote: I recommend using the report button to report his posts as off topic so they can be moved to another thread. I believe the mods would likely honor your request.
They are not off topic. The witnesses are a strong case that the church is true. They experienced something unusual which stayed with them all their lives. Why? What did they experience? I see no troubling issue there.
But yes, you are right. I am off topic, cicero does not want to regain his testimony. So I gave him some advice. Come out...lay it all on the table including not wishing to regain his testimony and let the chips fall where they may. Freedom will then come.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
