Tobin wrote:Joseph Smith had no knowldege of Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Your position is completely ludicrous on its face.
Tobin, that's a nice little bit of jiu-jitsu, but we all agree that what Joseph Smith was attempting to do was ludicrous. it's Joseph Smith himself who didn't seem to realize that.
i think you're projecting your modern scientific world view onto people from a much different culture than ours. these people literally believed in the gift of toungues and that the babble they would say was a correct "secular" translation of a prayer into another language. so why would it be so strange for Joseph Smith to believe he had the gift of creating a correct "secular" translation from hieroglyphs?
Why even bother with props (plates and papyrus) if he was just receiving revelation? Couldn't he just have told people he had looked into his stone and received revealed scripture?
Tobin's explanation makes no sense.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote: That is why we don't have the Gold Plates because he doesn't want people believing what the owner of the plates has to say - he wants us to believe what he has to say.
After the fiasco with the Book of Abraham, do you really think if we had Joseph Smith's source plates for the Book of Mormon, the plates the witnesses actually saw and hefted, that the plates would actually match the Book of Mormon text? Or do you think the plates would be like the papyri and have nothing to do with the Book of Mormon?
That's actually a good question. I suspect the answer would be in a strict sense - NO. I believe the Book of Mormon was conceptualized by Joseph Smith into English; otherwise, Joseph Smith would be redundant to the process entirely. Why not just have God physically do it (since God would understand both languages perfectly) and could provide a perfect translation. If the Book of Mormon is true, then its imperfections (and the imperfections of Joseph Smith himself) are part of God's intent. Otherwise, as I've said, Joseph Smith is not necessary at all.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Joseph Smith had no knowldege of Egyptian Hieroglyphics. Your position is completely ludicrous on its face.
Tobin, that's a nice little bit of jiu-jitsu, but we all agree that what Joseph Smith was attempting to do was ludicrous. it's Joseph Smith himself who didn't seem to realize that.
i think you're projecting your modern scientific world view onto people from a much different culture than ours. these people literally believed in the gift of toungues and that the babble they would say was a correct "secular" translation of a prayer into another language. so why would it be so strange for Joseph Smith to believe he had the gift of creating a correct "secular" translation from hieroglyphs?
I'm not looking at it from Joseph Smith's point of view. I can understand Joseph Smith's reasons for doing and saying the things he did. I also believe he was mistaken. And Mormons are going to have to confront this at some point. Either they need to acknowledge the truth - that Joseph Smith had no ability to read or translate Egyptian Hieroglyphics or stick their heads in the sand. So far, most choose the latter.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Bob Loblaw wrote:Why even bother with props (plates and papyrus) if he was just receiving revelation? Couldn't he just have told people he had looked into his stone and received revealed scripture?
Tobin's explanation makes no sense.
Actually there are two accounts (Wilford Woodruff and Lucy Smith) that indicate the use of the U&T/face in the hat method.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Bob Loblaw wrote:Why even bother with props (plates and papyrus) if he was just receiving revelation? Couldn't he just have told people he had looked into his stone and received revealed scripture?
Tobin's explanation makes no sense.
Actually there are two accounts (Wilford Woodruff and Lucy Smith) that indicate the use of the U&T/face in the hat method.
I am not sure who I feel more sorry for, Laban for getting killed for no reason or Moroni for lugging around the plates for no reason.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Fence Sitter wrote:Actually there are two accounts (Wilford Woodruff and Lucy Smith) that indicate the use of the U&T/face in the hat method.
I am aware of that, but in both cases, Joseph claimed to possess the source document (plates and papyrus) used for the translation. If Tobin is right, Joseph was a moron who thought he was translating when he wasn't, and God was happy to let him think that.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Fence Sitter wrote:Actually there are two accounts (Wilford Woodruff and Lucy Smith) that indicate the use of the U&T/face in the hat method.
I am aware of that, but in both cases, Joseph claimed to possess the source document (plates and papyrus) used for the translation. If Tobin is right, Joseph was a moron who thought he was translating when he wasn't, and God was happy to let him think that.
Well, this god is a bit of a...well...you know.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
just me wrote:Well, this god is a bit of a...well...you know.
You only think that because "you embrace the flesh as what you are and nothing more."
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Bob Loblaw wrote:Why even bother with props (plates and papyrus) if he was just receiving revelation? Couldn't he just have told people he had looked into his stone and received revealed scripture?
Tobin's explanation makes no sense.
Actually there are two accounts (Wilford Woodruff and Lucy Smith) that indicate the use of the U&T/face in the hat method.
Bob,
Actually, the U&T is meant to be used covered with a veil So Joseph Smith's face in the hat makes perfect sense. According to Joseph Smith, Moses wore the U&T to reveal the word of God to the children of Israel. This helps clarify the following verse. These devices have a blinding white light in which the word of the Lord is revealed through the U&T to the prophets.
And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
