Understanding KEP and Book of Abraham issues

[_sock puppet]

Do you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God? I suspect the answer is 'no'. Do you accept the gospel, as revealed by Joseph Smith? I suspect the answer is 'no'. Do you accept the ordinances and priesthood of God as revealed by Joseph Smith? I suspect the answer is 'no'. As far as I am concerned, and most Mormons would be concerned, you are damned.

I'm not concerned about the beliefs of most Mormons, but even if I believed in the church, I would not presume to judge the state of someone else's soul.

Loblaw, you just are not made of the timber from which LDS bishops are cut, now are you? You take that Christian notion of judge-not just a bit too literally to be an LDS leader, don't you?

[_Fence Sitter]

Its nice to see what could have been an interesting thread about the Book of Abraham has been trolled into a meaningless redundant discussion on how one person knows what God wants and the rest of us are just ignorant.

[_Stormy Waters]

Its nice to see what could have been an interesting thread about the Book of Abraham has been trolled into a meaningless redundant discussion on how one person knows what God wants and the rest of us are just ignorant.

Tobin pretty much says the same thing over and over again. Archeological, scientific, and historical evidence doesn't matter. Logical arguments don't matter. He keeps playing the same note over and over again.

Book of Abraham translation proven false? Ask God.
Racist ban for 150+ years? Ask God.
Evidence for the Book of Mormon? Ask God.
City Creek Mall? Ask God.
Women can't have the priesthood? Ask God.
Joseph lied about polygamy? Ask God.
Mark Hoffman? Ask God.
Caffeine? Ask God.
People who asked God don't agree? Ask God.

It's terribly dull.

[_Cicero]

Its nice to see what could have been an interesting thread about the Book of Abraham has been trolled into a meaningless redundant discussion on how one person knows what God wants and the rest of us are just ignorant.

We're all idiots to Tobin. I'm very jealous of him actually (communicating directly with God would be pretty cool).

[_Drifting]

Its nice to see what could have been an interesting thread about the Book of Abraham has been trolled into a meaningless redundant discussion on how one person knows what God wants and the rest of us are just ignorant.

We're all idiots to Tobin. I'm very jealous of him actually (communicating directly with God would be pretty cool).

Yes, it's a pity Tobin cannot remember what God looked like, sounded like, or anything He said in relation to His true Church when He popped in to see him during a seriously sinful moment in Tobin's life.

[_Tobin]

Its nice to see what could have been an interesting thread about the Book of Abraham has been trolled into a meaningless redundant discussion on how one person knows what God wants and the rest of us are just ignorant.

Tobin pretty much says the same thing over and over again. Archeological, scientific, and historical evidence doesn't matter. Logical arguments don't matter. He keeps playing the same note over and over again.

Book of Abraham translation proven false? Ask God.
Racist ban for 150+ years? Ask God.
Evidence for the Book of Mormon? Ask God.
City Creek Mall? Ask God.
Women can't have the priesthood? Ask God.
Joseph lied about polygamy? Ask God.
Mark Hoffman? Ask God.
Caffeine? Ask God.
People who asked God don't agree? Ask God.

It's terribly dull.

Clearly it isn't something you learned to do when you were a Mormon. Maybe I can drill into you now that you aren't. You seem to think it is boring to seek and speak with God. You would consider all the prophets that have done so as bores as well. From Adam to Joseph Smith, they all sought and spoke with God and got the answers from him. Until you are willing to do that and learn from God, you'll never understand a thing about the gospel.

[_Tobin]

Its nice to see what could have been an interesting thread about the Book of Abraham has been trolled into a meaningless redundant discussion on how one person knows what God wants and the rest of us are just ignorant.

As long as you are unwilling to inquire and get your answers from God, you are ignorant.

[Guest]

Its nice to see what could have been an interesting thread about the Book of Abraham has been trolled into a meaningless redundant discussion on how one person knows what God wants and the rest of us are just ignorant.

We're all idiots to Tobin. I'm very jealous of him actually (communicating directly with God would be pretty cool).

It isn't hard Cicero. Try talking to God some time and doing what he asks, it might even surprise you.

[_Chap]

You seem to think it is boring to seek and speak with God.

Actually, no.

I think you are boring because 'speak with God' is in essence your answer to every problem, with the implication that you have done that, and so you know.

And I do not have the impression that I am entirely alone in this.

[_Drifting]

I know enough about the Book of Abraham issues to know it's seriously jacked up, but not enough to speak intelligently. And it's time I understood the issues better. What's the best primer?

Way back when I ready a summary which was similar to the information in this thread

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/552 ... challenged

But it showed the full text of the KEP with the symbol and matched it up with the verse in Book of Abraham. I couldn't find that article or something like it when I searched. Suggestions where to find that write up?

I watched Will Schryver's 2010 FAIR presentation and studied the document Wade Englund posted at the bottom of this thread

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/588 ... e-the-kep/

Those are two hours of my life I wish I had back.

I started to digest this

viewtopic.php?p=350403

But frankly it's over my head and a little intimidating.

I've done some research on the length of scrolls issue. What is the best summary on that? How much do the critics think is missing and how much do the apologists think is missing? And this should be understood in terms of the total amount or vs the total amount found. My take on that so far is that it doesn't matter because we've seen plenty (KEP and facsimiles) that did survive and they ain't what Joseph says they are.

I've read a little on what the apologists call hits on Abraham and apocryphic writings credited to Abraham, and I think I understand that issue well enough. Just like the Book of Mormon and the temple/masonry issues, you can find other contemporary sources that are more likely sources.

What about the issue of whether the KEP is used in translation or used to reverse engineer? And does it matter?

Bump to try and put the thread back on track.