The people on that forum know the issues. We have discussed them over and over again. It is not easy discussing the same old same old. But here is the point: we don't discuss them with woulda coulda and shoulda. We don't dabber in hypothetical Illustrations as MormonThink does.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote: The point that I am making is this: MormonThink is misleading.
It can't be misleading if it is telling the truth. I see you still cannot show what is incorrect, and it does better then most sites for or against in representing both sides, which I believe they state is part of their purpose to be FAIR.
why me wrote:Hardly. The site is riddled with casting doubt not truth. And that is why dave is heading to the court and others who are involved with the site.
The world needs more doubt. People accepting the truth claims of others without doubt is the root cause of many of the world's evils.
why me wrote:Mary. Nothing wrong with truth. But mormonthink is not about truth. It is about leading people out of the church. I linked this part about the Book of Mormon from the site:
Now go through this long page and tell me it isn't bias. Of course it is. The all page is one big 'lets cast doubt' page. And it is not about truth at all. It is just a woulda, coulda and shoulda page, only to cast doubt in members minds. And the take on this page is designed to undermine faith.
Unlike you Whyme, nearly all active LDS don't know the truth about Mormon history. While you can lavish in your man-love for Joseph Smith for his accomplishments, the truth is kept from the faithful LDS. What you deem is "leading people out of the church" can be exemplified from them learning the truth. Magic seer stones placed in a hat is where the Book of Mormon came from... not the fictitious Urim and Thummim. The Book of Abraham is a complete lie based on Joseph Smith's inability to translate anything. While you continue to champion keeping the truth in check... show me one, just one, LDS depiction of the Book of Mormon being translated out of a seer stone placed in a hat.
To the OP, how can you possibly know this much about Mormonism and still pretend to believe in it? It is not true and anyone who knows the facts knows this. I can see the lemmings claiming "anti" in the brainwashed need to continue to believe, but how is it even fathomable to claim belief when you know the facts? It is literally like claiming the world is flat based on the evidence known.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. 2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths
why me wrote:Hardly. The site is riddled with casting doubt not truth. And that is why dave is heading to the court and others who are involved with the site.
The world needs more doubt. People accepting the truth claims of others without doubt is the root cause of many of the world's evils.
I doubt it.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
The point that I am making is this: MormonThink is misleading. When I read that link that I posted, it came across as doubting or meant to sow doubt. If this is run by Mormons, then they need to do a reality check about their rhetoric and bias.
Can you be specific on how the MormonThink site is misleading Why me. Show me a specific example and then I can consider it.
I read the fair Mormon links you provided, I also send people to fair Mormon (as well as Mormon Think). On the Spalding link, they don't detail the controversies and only dismiss the theory based on 'one' of Spaldings writings, not necessarily the book that Joseph 'may have borrowed from, still unfound but attested to by contemporaries at the time ie Spalding as 'it came to pass' man. Mormon Think on the other hand details the Spalding link without dismissing it yet not necessarily agreeing to it. They deal with the issue in a fairer way in my opinion, based on the complexity of the evidence.
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
Mary wrote: Can you be specific on how the MormonThink site is misleading Why me. Show me a specific example and then I can consider it.
I read the fair Mormon links you provided, I also send people to fair Mormon (as well as Mormon Think). On the Spalding link, they don't detail the controversies and only dismiss the theory based on 'one' of Spaldings writings, not necessarily the book that Joseph 'may have borrowed from, still unfound but attested to by contemporaries at the time ie Spalding as 'it came to pass' man. Mormon Think on the other hand details the Spalding link without dismissing it yet not necessarily agreeing to it. They deal with the issue in a fairer way in my opinion, based on the complexity of the evidence.
About polygamy, the thoughts of MormonThink: Why doesn't the spirit validate polygamy?
If polygamy was really sanctioned by our Heavenly Father and polygamy is an eternal principle expected to be practiced in the next life, then naturally the spirit should bear witness to this. So why doesn't the spirit make us all feel warm fuzzies inside when it comes to polygamy? We have rarely found members in the church, especially women, who readily accept this idea.
Doesn't it seem strange when the idea is brought up about polygamy that our stomachs turn? It just seems like a really strange concept to us. We as LDS base everything in our lives on feelings; yet when we feel opposed to something in the church, this emotional wrestling match starts inside us with the ultimate winner being "well, that's not for me to understand right now."
If there is anyone out there reading this that can honestly say that they get a good, warm, spiritual feeling that God commanded Joseph to marry other men's wives and 14 year-old girls and to lie about it all his life, please email us and we'll post your impressions here. Conclusion
When we read such statements as these by the First Presidency of the Church, we have to wonder if polygamy, as practiced by the saints, came from God or from man:
"Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake."
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, First Counselor to Brigham Young, The Lion of the Lord, New York, 1969, pp 129-130.
This is not very faith promoting and it ignores the fact that the women who were sealed to Joseph had very powerful spiritual experiences that cofirmed the truthfulness of the principle before they accepted. Also, the Kimball quotation can be challenged but they on MormonThink did not do so. Here is FAIR:
Here is a sample: The most commonly cited source for this quote is Stanley P. Hirshson, The Lion of the Lord, pp. 129-130:
Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake.[65]
Hirshson's endnote [65] references The New York Tribune, May 15, 1860 and The New York Times, April 17, 1860. Here's the relevant paragraph from the newspaper article:
Some time ago HEBER KIMBALL was lecturing some missionaries who were preparing to start out on foreign missions, in the Tabernacle, and said to them: "Brethren, I want you to understand that it is not to be as it has been heretofore. The brother Missionaries have been in the habit of picking out the prettiest women for themselves before they get here, and bringing on the ugly ones for us; hereafter you have to bring them all here before taking any of them, and let us all have a fair shake." The old reprobate then had at least a score of women whom he called wives. (FROM UTAH.; "Polygamy and its Fruits--The Missionaries--The Pony Express--More Pugnacious Preaching--Death of a Prominent Physician--The Season.", The New York Times, May 15, 1860.)
No indication is given regarding who heard Kimball state this. The byline on the article is simply "From Our Own Correspondents." The New York Times article is clearly antagonistic toward the Church.
My case in point. MormonThink is bias and has an agenda.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Polygamy is probably best understood by reading books. You can really get a sense of what the people that practiced it went through. Some of the best books on polygamy have been written by faithful LDS authors and can be purchased at Deseret Books or at BYU.
Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, Linda King Newell,Valeen Tippetts Avery. Recommended by the official church historian, Leonard Arrington. It's one of the books that was allowed to be read for class assignment at BYU. It's not dedicated to polygamy but deals with it quite a bit - mostly from Emma's perspective. Available at Deseret Books.
No Man Knows My history, Fawn Brodie. Not a book dedicated to polygamy but deals with it quite a bit. Fawn Brodie was President David O'McKay's niece. It's available for free at most libraries.
Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, D. Michael Quinn. Written while BYU History Professor had access to church archives. Covers Joseph Smith and beginnings of Mormonism.
Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power, D. Michael Quinn. Covers Brigham Young and into Utah.
Not very positive toward polygamy.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Mary wrote: Can you be specific on how the MormonThink site is misleading Why me. Show me a specific example and then I can consider it.
This is not very faith promoting and it ignores the fact that the women who were sealed to Joseph had very powerful spiritual experiences that cofirmed the truthfulness of the principle before they accepted.
The point is that many many LDS do not have spiritual experiences that confirm the truthfulness of polygamy, in this case the women who were sealed to Joseph Smith are irrelevant. And of course it isn't misleading it simply does not promote the LDS faith, why must everyone always promote the LDS faith or be excommunicated?
