Too Many Credible Witnesses, Says Daniel Peterson

[_DrW]

From the Comments Section. Surprised that they actually published this one. Illustrates the fallacy of DCP's little DN piece (and Mormonism in general).
__________________________________________

A Scientist
Provo, UT
Let's begin with "traditional Christianity". Mormons insist that it fell into "apostasy", which means it is false and wrong. Specifically, the Nicene Creed is discredited among Mormons.

But the truth is that the Nicene Creed is "based on" and is an expression of 400 years of miraculous events and manifestations, passed intimately among Apostolic eye witnesses and their close students and followers.

Compared to the theology of Mormonism, which varied and contradicted itself over just a few decades in its early years, ancient Christianity has a far better case than does Mormonism.

Now consider the Lectures on Faith, which were official doctrine (in the original D&C) for over 85 years before an ad hoc Correlation Committee removed it. But in the current Introduction to that scripture, the "Testimony of the Twelve Apostles to the Truth of the Book of Doctrine and Covenants" was testifying/witnessing of the truth of Lectures on Faith, which is not today considered "true" Mormon theology. How could they "witness" and "testify" of something that the Church later removed from "scripture"? And why is their testimony still used when it applied to a different D&C?

[_Darth J]

Clearly, DrW, you don't understand the difference between "continuing revelation" and "making it up as you go."

I would be happy to explain that difference, but...umm...I have some things I need to do right now...

[_cwald]

My god, reading stuff like this article and the comments...is it any wonder that NOMs like myself are so cynical and skeptical? Should TBMs be surprised at all...I mean, can't the church acknowledge and accept any of blame or credit for making me this way?

[_DrW]

Clearly, DrW, you don't understand the difference between "continuing revelation" and "making it up as you go."

I would be happy to explain that difference, but...umm...I have some things I need to do right now...

Darth,

I will readily admit to great difficulty in distinguishing between the two when it comes to Mormonism, so I eagerly await your clarification on the matter (whenever you can find the time).

[_TAK]

Read the article, Bob. I think you might be surprised. I think Joseph Smith was a true idealist and this led him to make, as demonstrated by his demise, deadly errors of judgement.

I actually think I'd like to have a beer with Joseph some day. Even with all his many shortcomings you have to be impressed with what he did by the age of 38.

Were you able to meet Joseph Smith, he would almost certainly take you up on the offer of a beer. In spite of his Word of Wisdom, Joseph Smith used alcohol and was known to appear drunk in public on occasion.

There is very strong evidence that alcohol is not the only drug with which Joseph Smith was familiar. Richard Bushman writes that the entire Smith family was well acquainted with folk medicine and the extraction and use of herds such as Ginseng (which Bushman reports that Joseph Smith Sr. extracted commercially). This knowledge and skill with herbs no doubt extended to the Jimson weed (Datura) used by Native Americans of the area as an entheogen for their Visions Quests and other local entheogens.

Numerous early accounts of group experiences with manifestations of the "spirit", visions, and goings on in the School of the Prophets, etc., the fact that these were commonly associated with the consumption of sacramental wine, and ceased abruptly when Joseph Smith was killed, leaves little doubt that Joseph Smith as a magician (again according to Richard Bushman), used extracts from datura, and/or manita muscaria mushroom and/or peyote to "enhance" the spiritual experiences of his followers.

Contemporary descriptions of events at the School of the Prophets can be mapped point for point onto the well known course of signs and symptoms of Datura ingestion, the effects of which can last for up to two days.

If I were to invite Joseph Smith for a beer (or especially a glass of wine) I would be sure that it came from my stock, not his.

This is why I stop in from time to time..thanks!

[Guest]

This is why I stop in from time to time..thanks!

You are most welcome. Thanks for your interest.

This idea has been around for a long time, and has gained credibility recently from several pieces of supporting evidence in Richard Bushman's biography of Joseph Smith (Rough Stone Rolling).

I personally find this hypothesis to have very good explanatory power.

by the way: is your avatar your boat?

(Just curious.)

[_The Dude]

This is why I stop in from time to time..thanks!

Yep! Thanks for the interesting comments DrW and Gramps. I am persuaded by the ethogen-wine hypothesis.

[_TAK]

"by the way: is your avatar your boat?"

Yup..

[_DrW]

"by the way: is your avatar your boat?"

Yup..

Well done.

[_TAK]

"by the way: is your avatar your boat?"

Yup..

Well done.

Thanks!

As-an aside DCPs point about the witnesses is really just a silly distraction. It does not matter what they saw. The authenticity of the Book of Mormon raises and falls on its content.