New missionary applications up from 700 to 4000 a week

[_Cicero]

I'm certainly not going to argue that a mission helps one develop critical thinking skills (it does not), but one thing it can teach is discipline. I am no longer a believer, but I can't say that I regret serving a mission because at that point in my life I really needed to learn how to set goals and work hard, and serving a mission did that for me. I did one semester of college before my mission, and my grades improved dramatically after serving a mission. I know that I am not alone in that regard.

[_Fence Sitter]

I'm certainly not going to argue that a mission helps one develop critical thinking skills (it does not), but one thing it can teach is discipline. I am no longer a believer, but I can't say that I regret serving a mission because at that point in my life I really needed to learn how to set goals and work hard, and serving a mission did that for me. I did one semester of college before my mission, and my grades improved dramatically after serving a mission. I know that I am not alone in that regard.

I had exactly the same experience. I don't regret my mission at all. The best thing a kid that age can learn in that time period is discipline and focus. Even as an inactive adult I strongly encouraged my sons to go and those that did are better off as a result.

[_lulu]

Lets try this again: it makes no difference if they are 19 or 18, critical thinking skills are not on the agenda.

sig worthy.

[_Darth J]

And in what way did a year and a half of unquestioning acceptance and parroting of the LDS faith-promoting sales pitch help them develop critical thinking skills so they would perform better in college than people who have not served LDS missions?

Lets try this again: it makes no difference if they are 19 or 18, critical thinking skills are not on the agenda.

QFT.

One does not get critical thinking skills after one year in college. Rather it is a process that one has to be taught. Critical thinking is basically a questioning process and the ability to weigh ideas reflectively before making a judgement. They do not get such a background after one year in college.

In today's straw man, Why Me is acting as if I claimed that one year of college produces fully-developed critical thinking skills. I did not say that. What I am saying is that one and a half years (for girls) to two years (for boys) of critical thinking skills being actively inhibited definitely does not help develop critical thinking skills. It substantially sets those skills back, in many cases beyond recovery. Anecdote: being in a priesthood meeting in which a bunch of grown men agonize about what rated R movies might be okay to watch even though the Bretheren have told us not to watch rated R movies.

However, they do get wonderful study habits after serving a mission. And they get some discipline in their young lives. All needed at 18 years of age.

Yes, if there is anything a person in later adolescence needs, it is rote memorization and repetition of unquestioned dogma, and total control over your every waking moment. That is indeed the high road to adult cognition and personal responsibility.

[_Darth J]

I'm certainly not going to argue that a mission helps one develop critical thinking skills (it does not), but one thing it can teach is discipline. I am no longer a believer, but I can't say that I regret serving a mission because at that point in my life I really needed to learn how to set goals and work hard, and serving a mission did that for me. I did one semester of college before my mission, and my grades improved dramatically after serving a mission. I know that I am not alone in that regard.

I had exactly the same experience. I don't regret my mission at all. The best thing a kid that age can learn in that time period is discipline and focus. Even as an inactive adult I strongly encouraged my sons to go and those that did are better off as a result.

Do you guys see how you're doing a variant of the broken window fallacy, or should I explain it?

Meanwhile, let's consider the implications of what you're saying: immature kids who lack focus and personal discipline should go out somewhere in the world and tell everyone else how to live their lives.

Study habits = rote memorization and regurgitation of sales pitch talking points, the underlying dogma of which is never questioned

Discipline and focus = a religious organization has absolute control over your every waking moment for two years, to the extent that you have a monitor with you literally 24/7, with whom you are not on a first name basis ("Elder")

[_Cicero]

Do you guys see how you're doing a variant of the broken window fallacy, or should I explain it?

Meanwhile, let's consider the implications of what you're saying: immature kids who lack focus and personal discipline should go out somewhere in the world and tell everyone else how to live their lives.

Study habits = rote memorization and regurgitation of sales pitch talking points, the underlying dogma of which is never questioned

Discipline and focus = a religious organization has absolute control over your every waking moment for two years, to the extent that you have a monitor with you literally 24/7, with whom you are not on a first name basis ("Elder")

\

To be clear, I was really only referring to myself rather than making a global argument that missions are a good thing overall when one considers all of the costs/benefits. I certainly don't think every undisciplined teenager should serve a mission. Just like with everything else that is "good" about the church, there are very likely equivalent ways to achieve this "good" in another less costly manner.

[_Fence Sitter]

Do you guys see how you're doing a variant of the broken window fallacy, or should I explain it?

Meanwhile, let's consider the implications of what you're saying: immature kids who lack focus and personal discipline should go out somewhere in the world and tell everyone else how to live their lives.

Study habits = rote memorization and regurgitation of sales pitch talking points, the underlying dogma of which is never questioned

Discipline and focus = a religious organization has absolute control over your every waking moment for two years, to the extent that you have a monitor with you literally 24/7, with whom you are not on a first name basis ("Elder")

I guess, since most of the people I converted were religious in one sense or another, I don't see the same down side to conversion to Mormonism. I don't think I was out breaking windows as much as I was changing the color of the pane. Perhaps a useless exercise but non destructive, in my opinion.

Yes I agree that a form of mind control goes on in a mission (as it does in the military for youth of the same age) but the bottom line for me as an individual was I was better able to cope with college and life once I got back. Maybe it was just the fact I was two years older.

I also don't see it as absolute control. On my mission I knew if I really wanted to, I could make a big enough fuss and get sent home. I choose not too even when it was really difficult for me to stay in the beginning of my mission.

[_Darth J]

I guess, since most of the people I converted were religious in one sense or another, I don't see the same down side to conversion to Mormonism. I don't think I was out breaking windows as much as I was changing the color of the pane. Perhaps a useless exercise but non destructive, in my opinion.

I'm talking about the opportunity cost to the missionary.

Yes I agree that a form of mind control goes on in a mission (as it does in the military for youth of the same age)

You get paid to be in the military. Being in the military is a viable career option. The same are not true of being an LDS missionary.

but the bottom line for me as an individual was I was better able to cope with college and life once I got back. Maybe it was just the fact I was two years older.

You have a basis of comparison for before and after your mission, but you have no frame of reference for the intervening two years. You don't have any way of knowing if you would have been just as able to cope with life, the universe, and everything, or possibly even more prepared, had you done something else during that time.

I also don't see it as absolute control. On my mission I knew if I really wanted to, I could make a big enough fuss and get sent home. I choose not too even when it was really difficult for me to stay in the beginning of my mission.

No, see, if you choose to stay, you choose to be under control. Strong enough consequences tend to dilute free will. I could theoretically choose to go rob a bank, but I can't choose to do that and also choose to remain in free society.

[_just me]

I don't think parents should spend $10000 for their son to learn better study habits by going door to door for 2 years selling a fundamentalist and damaging religion.

[_Fence Sitter]

I'm talking about the opportunity cost to the missionary.

Okay

You get paid to be in the military. Being in the military is a viable career option. The same are not true of being an LDS missionary.

Hey I got a two year all expenses paid vacation, that included room, board, intensive foreign language training and a whole new wardrobe of matching pants, shirts ties and name tags. I got to go places and experiences cultures that I would never have seen otherwise. Does that count?

You have a basis of comparison for before and after your mission, but you have no frame of reference for the intervening two years. You don't have any way of knowing if you would have been just as able to cope with life, the universe, and everything, or possibly even more prepared, had you done something else during that time.

I think I have a pretty good idea what would have happened. Before my mission I was flunking out of college. That was not going to change if I went back right after my freshman year. (I enjoyed skiing and playing basketball too much my second freshman semester and ended up on academic probation.) After my mission I had a better balance of academics and recreation, though I still spent way too much time playing basketball. I was able to finish college. In my opinion I would not have finished if I continued at an earlier age.

No, see, if you choose to stay, you choose to be under control. Strong enough consequences tend to dilute free will. I could theoretically choose to go rob a bank, but I can't choose to do that and also choose to remain in free society.

At 19 I understood the immediate consequences of robbing a bank, not so much spending too much time on the slopes at Sundance. By the way the consequences of flunking out of school, in my mind at least, are similar to failing in a mission. In both cases I would have family and friends back home I would have to face. While I had less choice on my mission to leave than I would have had in school, perhaps that added difficulty helped me to stay on my mission and later on give me the ability to finish school.

Darth I am not saying a mission is for everyone. Kids who know what the hell they want at 18 probably have no use for it, but for people like me it allowed me time to mature and learn so that I was better able to focus on what was important. Was that a result of the mission or just being two years older? I think probably a bit of both.