Links to the Maxwell Institute

[_RayAgostini]

Oh, Ray, if you don't want to interact with me, just stop responding to me. Or is it that you forgot why one would mention Gandhi together with Martin Luther King, and now you feel silly for raising a fuss over that?

No, I don't feel silly at all. Just lapping up the esprit de corps. I want to be a part of the whine-o-fest, at least while I'm here. I'm sort of like a stranger and a pilgrim observing the native etiquette. So I have to bitch about something, no matter how minor, to feel more welcome.

Don't get uptight, though, because after I reply to Doctor Scratch, I'll take leave once again. It's spring, the sun is shining, and the temperature is superbly mild. My son is coming over for another kind of "fest" later, a "gabfest", and I look forward to learning something new! What more could a man ask for?

Put on your feelgood hat, Kishkumen, and savor the sentimental moment:

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth. Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings.

Over to the tag team...

[_Kishkumen]

No, I don't feel silly at all. Just lapping up the esprit de corps. I want to be a part of the whine-o-fest, at least while I'm here. I'm sort of like a stranger and a pilgrim observing the native etiquette. So I have to bitch about something, no matter how minor, to feel more welcome.

Minor, like accusing Laura Compton of being deceived by Satan and seeking to lead others away from the Gospel as well? Minor, like endlessly calling MsJack a man-hating anti-Mormon? Minor, like calling Gerald Bradford an incompetent administrator who stabs people in the back?

If I were to name one person on this board whose sense of scale I did not trust, it would be you. No contest.

Don't get uptight, though, because after I reply to Doctor Scratch, I'll take leave once again.

Darn it. I was hoping for another massive implosion in which you would go completely berserk on me. We were taking bets to see which person I would end up being this time.

But since you see such behavior as minor, I would hate to see what kind of postal moment might actually rise to the level of worrisome in your mind.

[_RayAgostini]

Minor, like accusing Laura Compton of being deceived by Satan and seeking to lead others away from the Gospel as well? Minor, like endlessly calling MsJack a man-hating anti-Mormon? Minor, like calling Gerald Bradford an incompetent administrator who stabs people in the back?

If I were to name one person on this board whose sense of scale I did not trust, it would be you. No contest.

Consider me flattered. Truly.

[_Kishkumen]

Consider me flattered. Truly.

You consider yourself whatever you like, Ray. And it probably has little basis in reality.

[_RayAgostini]

But since you see such behavior as minor, I would hate to see what kind of postal moment might actually rise to the level of worrisome in your mind.

Your postal moments truly do worry me. If they were an aberration, I might not worry so much. But the truth is that if MDB were the space shuttle, you'd one of its solid rocket boosters (or maybe both). Liquid hydrogen is an expensive propellant to use. All that pent up hate and revenge you harbour, must have escaped NASA scientists as a viable source of energy and cheap fuel.

Maybe they're looking for volunteers for further Mars missions? You could be paid for expending all that negative energy, and serve humanity and further space exploration. You could be a hero.

Don't be shy. Take your place in history.

[_RockSlider]

My grandpa use to say "one boy good boy … two boys half boy … three boys no boy at all."

[_Kishkumen]

Your postal moments truly do worry me. If they were an aberration, I might not worry so much. But the truth is that if MDB were the space shuttle, you'd one of its solid rocket boosters (or maybe both). Liquid hydrogen is an expensive propellant to use. All that pent up hate and revenge you harbour, must have escaped NASA scientists as a viable source of energy and cheap fuel.

Maybe they're looking for volunteers for further Mars missions? You could be paid for expending all that negative energy, and serve humanity and further space exploration. You could be a hero.

Don't be shy. Take your place in history.

Yeah, again, I am not seeing any connection between this bizarro interpretation of me and me. I don't feel the "pent up hate and revenge" that you attribute to me. I don't see that I have ever gone "postal." I would say that I have fairly well called things as they are. Most of the people I have chatted with agree that what was happening at the Review under Daniel's editorship was not Christian. And, frankly, the people who agreed with me were a lot more solid than either of us, but, pardon my frankness, very much more so than you.

Daniel Peterson is, well, a bully and a loose cannon, and he has completely lived up to his reputation at BYU for popping off and sending poorly considered emails in which he cc's way too many people for his own professional good. That is a shame, because, aside from his dreadful, self-indulgent apologetics and absurd politics, he seems like a very nice and intelligent man. I imagine he was a darn good bishop too. And, you, Ray, I can say without any hesitation that you have the soul of a poet, which means, unfortunately, that we have to take the beauty, wisdom, and the madness all together. We don't get to choose. Oh well, I still think you are among the top culturally-LDS writers online, and I loved being your friend as long as that lasted.

So, peace, Ray. It is difficult to continue trading barbs with you when what you say is more baffling and bemusing than irritating.

[_RayAgostini]

If I were to name one person on this board whose sense of scale I did not trust, it would be you. No contest.

And, you, Ray, I can say without any hesitation that you have the soul of a poet, which means, unfortunately, that we have to take the beauty, wisdom, and the madness all together. We don't get to choose. Oh well, I still think you are among the top culturally-LDS writers online, and I loved being your friend as long as that lasted.

I'll do my best to digest this. Was it Ben Franklin who said he was "a bundle of contradictions"? I know Abraham Lincoln said he always felt like there was a "civil war" eternally going on inside him.

Perhaps we're more lenient to the sins and contradictions of those we like, and don't extend the same mercy or understanding to those we don't like. The beam in our enemy's eye, becomes the mote in our friend's eye. The same excusable mistakes made by our friends, are the same inexcusable mistakes made by our enemies.

This doesn't say much about our sense of objectivity and fairness, but it says a lot about where our loyalties lie. And we are all guilty as charged. I'm okay with being charged as a "Mormon sympathiser", and a friend of Dan Peterson, because in spite of his "inexcusable crimes against humanity and liberals" and his "shameful reign of terror", I happen to think that at heart he's an honourable person, and a truthful person who is not immune to the foibles of human nature, or the contradictions of human nature. I only know of one person who ever lived, whom I believe to have been above this - and it's not Dan.

So, peace, Ray. It is difficult to continue trading barbs with you when what you say is more baffling and bemusing than irritating.

General message not specifically directed at Kishkumen: You want mercy, then show mercy. You want forgiveness, then extend forgiveness. You want to be understood, then try to understand. Leave final judgements in the hands of God.

Is there a place for "liberals" in the Church? Maybe. But not if with railing accusation they try to drive the true believers out of a voice.

If, in the end, they don't want me, or accept me, I'm okay with that, and moving on to other spheres of life, and continuing my journey outside of the Church. There's no point at all in being bitter, no point at all in harbouring hate - Just no point at all.

[_Kishkumen]

I'm okay with being charged as a "Mormon sympathiser", and a friend of Dan Peterson, because in spite of his "inexcusable crimes against humanity and liberals" and his "shameful reign of terror", I happen to think that at heart he's an honourable person, and a truthful person who is not immune to the foibles of human nature, or the contradictions of human nature. I only know of one person who ever lived, whom I believe to have been above this - and it's not Dan.

First, I don't know why you would think I would have a problem with you being a Mormon sympathizer. If you think that I do, you are wrong.

Second, I have no problem with you being a friend of Daniel Peterson, and I had no problem with you showing Doctor Scratch's theory to be problematic.

Third, I have repeatedly said, and I have meant it every time, that I find Daniel to be a mixed bag. Good and bad. The stuff I have gone after was the bad. Never have I not acknowledged that there is good.

Is there a place for "liberals" in the Church? Maybe. But not if with railing accusation they try to drive the true believers out of a voice.

Well, I don't see that liberal Mormons have generally done such a thing. What I have seen is that liberal Mormons have justly registered their displeasure about being bullied and pushed around by a handful of zealous apologists, which is not exactly the same thing. Not by a longshot.

If, in the end, they don't want me, or accept me, I'm okay with that, and moving on to other spheres of life, and continuing my journey outside of the Church. There's no point at all in being bitter, no point at all in harbouring hate - Just no point at all.

Well, Ray, I don't know whom you are addressing here, but I don't feel at all marginalized by the LDS Church. I don't resent the LDS Church, and I bear no ill will toward the Church. I don't expect the LDS Church to change to suit my preferences, and it will not particularly unsettle me when they continue not to change to suit my preferences. I enjoy attending Church. I enjoy being LDS in my own way, which is not to say that I am a "cafeteria" Mormon, at least, in my view. I find that of all the people I have heard discuss their faith, I am most sympathetic to Phil Barlow. Have you heard his interview with John Dehlin?

I highly recommend it.

In any case, I think he is LDS in a way that matches pretty well how I feel, although I would say he is a much better guy than I am in a number of ways.

And the funny thing is, I don't see what any of this has to do with the Maxwell Institute as it was in the past. I see no connection any longer between my opinions about the Maxwell Institute when Dr. Peterson was there, and my sense of being LDS. Maybe because I have changed, evolved, or what have you, but I think I learned some time ago that what Dr. Peterson was up to had everything to do with how he chooses to be LDS and nothing to do with how I choose to be LDS. So, he can continue to do as he likes; I can continue to disagree with him as I like; and that will have nothing to do with my relationship with the Church, as far as I am concerned.

[_RayAgostini]

Prof. P. hasn't been very honest about any of the events surrounding his dismissal. The fact is that he just hasn't told the truth about the extent to which General Authorities were involved in the discussions leading up to this, and he isn't being honest about the extent to which he and the other Mopologists were told to "tone it down."

I think I'm capable of making my own judgements in regard to things like this. I could say some unpleasant things here in regard to your own performance, but I'll refrain.

I don't know how you can publicly judge someone's honesty, or a lack of it, unless you've been privy to conversations among leaders in the highest councils of the Church. Did a member of the Twelve or First Presidency whisper something in your ear?

The thing is, Ray: you seem to be awfully gullible when it comes to accepting everything DCP says on this matter. Consider the fact that he was shown to have lied--repeatedly, for over half a decade--about getting paid to do apologetics. What do you make of that? Do you think that a lie of that magnitude is irrelevant? How do you explain it away?

Did you notice that I haven't harped on this? In fact, I said I believe they should be paid (but I come from a Catholic background). That's beside the point, though. Dr. Peterson is a professor of Islamic studies and Arabic at BYU. That's his real job, for which he is paid. He's not salaried to "do apologetics", and wasn't either before or after the MI's/FARMS incorporation into BYU. Now that he's no longer with the MI, his salary will stay the same, because he's paid to teach Arabic, not "do apologetics". So there's nothing here to "explain away", because he was not lying when he said that not a cent of his salary comes from his apologetic work. If he received any financial compensation for his books (doubtful considering how small the market for apologetics is), and even if he worked on his books/articles after classes at BYU, or even in-between classes, as long as he fulfilled his teaching obligations, only a pedant would accuse him of being "paid to do apologetics". I note your new thread. Well truth be told, I wouldn't care in the least how much they earn outside of BYU. Even it can support them full time as scholars of Mormonism, publishing works on Mormonism and apologetics. Then again, I'm a "Republican" (Liberal in Australia), and strongly believe in individual enterprise.

They "have different aims and goals"? Really? What is the difference? And I haven't claimed anywhere that "DCP [has linked] to FAIR." Rather, I've pointed out that FAIR-owned entities have linked to the Maxwell Institute, and that, all things considered, this seems like a slap in the face to DCP. If the links stay up, one can't help but view this as a gesture of hostility towards Prof. P., and a vote in favor of Dr. Bradford.

Perhaps don't know the inside workings between FAIR and the Interpreter., or between DCP and Scott Gordon. If you did, you wouldn't waste time speculating like this.

It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Scott Gordon feels like he, John Lynch, and the rest of the FAIR crew were given the shaft by way of this new Mormon Interpreter venture. It will be very, very interesting to see whether the links are allowed to remain, or whether they are quietly "removed."

You've spoken to Scott and John recently? You know how they feel about Mormon Interpreter, or that there's a "rift" between Mormon Interpreter and FAIR?

Can you produce any hard evidence for this, rather than speculation?