Chap wrote:OK. 'God' is just another being inhabiting the universe like us, only more advanced. He didn't make us any more than he made himself, so he is not responsible for us (which obviously he would be if he had made us).
My recollection is Joseph Smith taught that God, finding himself in the midst of spirits, and being more intelligent than they, took it upon Himself to institute a system whereby they could grow and advance to become more like He.
I think that's a cool idea, but not one where he has abdicated responsibility for us.
In fact, it seems that finding himself in a situation where he had no responsibility for us, he took affirmative steps to make us his responsibility.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
RockSlider wrote: 25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;
It's funny you should quote this, Relief Society, because the thought crossed my mind yesterday that we are teaching only the Aaronic gospel and proclaiming it as the fulness.
Maybe you're rubbing off on me.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
It's kind of like what happened with the Catholic Church.
About 2,000 years ago.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
Not quite. Joseph initiated the change because of the chaotic nature that was happening. Nothing was being accomplished and people were going a little off their heads.
And then we had a prophet and twelve apostles leading the church. It could not be a free for all. No church can survive in a free for all mode.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote: Not quite. Joseph initiated the change because of the chaotic nature that was happening. Nothing was being accomplished and people were going a little off their heads.
And then we had a prophet and twelve apostles leading the church. It could not be a free for all. No church can survive in a free for all mode.
And how is this different from the history of the Catholic Church exactly?
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
why me wrote: Not quite. Joseph initiated the change because of the chaotic nature that was happening. Nothing was being accomplished and people were going a little off their heads.
And then we had a prophet and twelve apostles leading the church. It could not be a free for all. No church can survive in a free for all mode.
And how is this different from the history of the Catholic Church exactly?
That part that you quoted, consig? From that other person? That other person has not read much early Mormon history because that is not even close to being an accurate description of charismatic gifts in the early church.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
Chap wrote:OK. 'God' is just another being inhabiting the universe like us, only more advanced. He didn't make us any more than he made himself, so he is not responsible for us (which obviously he would be if he had made us).
My recollection is Joseph Smith taught that God, finding himself in the midst of spirits, and being more intelligent than they, took it upon Himself to institute a system whereby they could grow and advance to become more like He.
I think that's a cool idea, but not one where he has abdicated responsibility for us.
In fact, it seems that finding himself in a situation where he had no responsibility for us, he took affirmative steps to make us his responsibility.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
Yup, that idea is certainly cooler than Tobin's, and makes the entity you call 'God' a lot more worthy of our attention. Alas, since I don't think there are any spirits, this discussion seems to me to be about little more than alternative rules for Dungeons and Dragons.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Chap wrote:OK. 'God' is just another being inhabiting the universe like us, only more advanced. He didn't make us any more than he made himself, so he is not responsible for us (which obviously he would be if he had made us).
My recollection is Joseph Smith taught that God, finding himself in the midst of spirits, and being more intelligent than they, took it upon Himself to institute a system whereby they could grow and advance to become more like He.
I think that's a cool idea, but not one where he has abdicated responsibility for us.
In fact, it seems that finding himself in a situation where he had no responsibility for us, he took affirmative steps to make us his responsibility.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
I don't think I said God abdicated anything or my view is much different than yours. God teaches us, but ultimately it is up to us. God is unable to force us into behavior or to go against our nature. The point often belabored here is God is responsible when bad things happen which is not true at all. It is a natural course of the universe that bad things can and do happen. Can God remedy the situation? Certainly. Can God warn us to avoid certain situations? Certainly. But given all that, it is still part of nature that such outcomes are an eventuality.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
I don't want to derail this thread into one of why evil exists, Tobin, but it seems to me if you posit that God can prevent evil from happening, or in the alternative can warn people about impending evil, but nevertheless chooses not to do so, still remains a rocky mountain for many theists to climb.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
You prove yourself of the devil and anti-mormon every word you utter, because only the devil perverts facts to make their case.--ldsfaqs (6-24-13)
consiglieri wrote:I don't want to derail this thread into one of why evil exists, Tobin, but it seems to me if you posit that God can prevent evil from happening, or in the alternative can warn people about impending evil, but nevertheless chooses not to do so, still remains a rocky mountain for many theists to climb.
All the Best!
--Consiglieri
God can prevent evil from happening, but then you have Satan's plan. Imagine a world where any alternative is prohibited. All actions are monitored and no-one is allowed to vary outside of what is prescribed since even well-intended actions at times can have tragic results. This is a hell and evil as well. It is a far better world that we have now, where we have the opportunity to choose God or not - then to have everything forced upon us and have perfection and good forced on us.
Last edited by Guest on Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Blixa wrote:That part that you quoted, consig? From that other person? That other person has not read much early Mormon history because that is not even close to being an accurate description of charismatic gifts in the early church.
I agree. It is very frustrating to sit in silence in Church when I hear someone use this same argument in support of strict "lines of authority" as well as correlation.