Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Lem]

I am unclear on the current direction this thread is going. Regardless of rosebud’s credibility, is there any doubt that a superior had an extremely inappropriate relationship with a subordinate, which culminated in her losing her job?

From Rosebud's timeline as shared here: viewtopic.php?p=21493#p21493 , it appears that the relationship predated her hiring.

According to Open Stories Foundation current policy, this is sexual harassment. Just because they didn’t have a policy in place at the time only means it is not possible to enforce the penalties, it in no way means the sexual harassment did not happen.

I have a really hard time with this. They had a consensual affair. It ended messily.

Riddle me this. My wife started an at home business. I support her in it. It was successful. I quit my full time job and work for her. She is definitely in charge. What happens if we were to get divorced? What if she wants me to quit? What if I am continually sending her texts begging her to take me back? Are you saying if I got fired this would be sexual harrassment against me? Really? Once terms apply to such a broad range of circumstances....

Yes, if you got fired and the inappropriate relationship was a factor. Yes, there are "a broad range of circumstances" that can be defined as sexual harassment.

[dastardly stem]

]

Every reliable piece of information indicates that John and Rosebud were conducting a consensual affair and were mutually seeking to bring it to a close until they disagreed on what to do regarding Joanna Brooks’ ultimatum. Yes, extra-marital affairs are immoral. Affairs at work are really unwise. This affair in particular was especially unhealthy and unwise.

But Joanna Brooks is not responsible for the affair. She is also not to be faulted for telling John and Rosebud that she would quit before she allowed them to continue working together while engaged in an affair. We have no reliable knowledge of Rosebud approaching Joanna with a claim that John was harassing her in August of 2012 when Joanna made her ultimatum.

Why would Joanna think John was forcing Rosebud out, when it was Rosebud who approached Joanna first? When Rosebud made no accusation against John? Where was Joanna to see John’s alleged manipulation in this? It was Rosebud who told John to cooperate with Joanna until she told John the opposite. Where is John’s alleged manipulation in there?

Joanna made the ultimatum that they would both resign or she would. They did not come up with that. I have seen zero evidence that John came up with that “plan.” Rosebud pushed John to reject Joanna’s demand and force Joanna to resign. That is what the documentary evidence shows. I am not seeing John’s manipulation. I am not seeing Joanna’s mishandling of a claim that was not made. I see Rosebud telling John to cooperate with Joanna and then reversing her advice.

I'm not disagreeing with most of this. But we still have John telling her to leave via text before all of this and, though maybe not completely reliable but certainly fits with the documents, we have Rosebud claiming John wanted her out, gone. That was without question, I'd say, because of the affair. As Lem has pointed out, that alone can be grounds for sexual harassment.

I think his behavior in slamming a bunch of unnamed community people and ending the conferences, the going back to church thing..all seem to expose alittle more what happened. That all was just weird.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Who said John came up with the plan? in my opinion, a superior had an inappropriate relationship with someone with less power, and when it became an issue in the workplace, the board forced her out of her employment as a way to deal with it. I've said this before, in my opinion both the Open Stories Foundation board and Dehlin are guilty of sexual harassment, as per their own current policy.

How much does that change given Rosebud’s claim they were equals, she was offered equal pay, and she pursued him after he wanted to break it off?

- Doc

[dastardly stem]

Pep pep!

Hey man, no big deal here...just saying it seems to me getting involved was a bad move. There is likely more to the story than what John fed ya and more than what the board new. I get the impulse to defend your friend. And your probably fine since Rosebud doesn't have much and comes off as unreliable.

[dastardly stem]

How much does that change given Rosebud’s claim they were equals, she was offered equal pay, and she pursued him after he wanted to break it off?

- Doc

Stepping in knowing Lem can address this better, I'd say her behavior is very concerning and moves the pendulum towards the he did nothing wrong side. But I'd suggest her perception of who held more power shouldn't factor in since he obviously did. She seems a bit delusional about how everyone viewed her. And her pursuing him is a problem for her case, itbut i's still possible she was behaving in a self-destructuve way while also being pushed out to favor John.

[Lem]

Who said John came up with the plan? in my opinion, a superior had an inappropriate relationship with someone with less power, and when it became an issue in the workplace, the board forced her out of her employment as a way to deal with it. I've said this before, in my opinion both the Open Stories Foundation board and Dehlin are guilty of sexual harassment, as per their own current policy.

How much does that change given Rosebud’s claim they were equals, she was offered equal pay, and she pursued him after he wanted to break it off?

- Doc

I don't believe her claim that they were equals, I think that comes out of her inflated ego. The pay thing I haven't looked at, so give me a minute.

As for a subordinate losing her job after a superior has an affair and then decides to break it off... the damage was done whether she took the break up quietly or not.

Maybe the question can be phrased like this: if a subordinate doesn't complain when a superior has an affair and then breaks up with said subordinate, and she is expected to just be quietly grateful to keep her job even though it is now a toxic work environment for her, one where she is sure that if she speaks up her job will be on the line, does that mean that there is no sexual harassment?

I'm pretty sure you can guess my answer.

[Lem]

How much does that change given Rosebud’s claim they were equals, she was offered equal pay, and she pursued him after he wanted to break it off?

- Doc

Stepping in knowing Lem can address this better, I'd say her behavior is very concerning and moves the pendulum towards the he did nothing wrong side. But I'd suggest her perception of who held more power shouldn't factor in since he obviously did. She seems a bit delusional about how everyone viewed her. And her pursuing him is a problem for her case, itbut i's still possible she was behaving in a self-destructuve way while also being pushed out to favor John.

I think you addressed that very well. There is so much problematic with her behavior, but I agree it doesn't sufficiently mitigate the basic issue of whether Dehlin's and the board's treatment of the situation constitutes sexual harassment.

[Moksha]

Is there any way that Mormon Discussions can subpoena all documents in this case for the chief litigators to present charges to the Grand Key Jury?

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Is there any way that Mormon Discussions can subpoena all documents in this case for the chief litigators to present charges to the Grand Key Jury?

> Grand Key Jury

Your edibles kickin' in there, buddy?

- Doc

[consiglieri]

Pep pep!

Hey man, no big deal here...just saying it seems to me getting involved was a bad move. There is likely more to the story than what John fed ya and more than what the board new. I get the impulse to defend your friend. And your probably fine since Rosebud doesn't have much and comes off as unreliable.

It’s all cool, my brother.

But I rankle a bit when people tell me I was defending Dehlin.

Or even thank me for defending John Dehlin.

I wasn’t defending Dehlin. I was trying to get some important documents and witness statements out of obscurity and to the public.

This was evidence the Open Stories Foundation board had known about for almost a decade, but hadn’t released it or talked about it publicly in spite of Rosebud’s frequent attempts to mischaracterize the situation.

They kept all this close to their vest out of deference to Rosebud and her mental health, as well I’m sure out of not wanting to douse gasoline on a small flame and hoping she would just get over it and go away.

Eventually that flame became a conflagration courtesy of Kwaku, KK and Company (with the consent if not encouragement of Rosebud), and the board decided the time had come to speak of many things.

“Heat not a fire for your foe so hot that it do singe yourself.”