Tax the Rich: An Animated Fairy Tale

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_ldsfaqs
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Re: Tax the Rich: An Animated Fairy Tale

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Analytics wrote:
ldsfaqs wrote:
I prefer this "critique" of that video....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5f6FZGjF8OA

It actually tells the facts and is honest.

I found that video to be quite ironic, because in unwittingly illustrated a couple of the main points of the video it was critiquing.

Specifically, the main video said that the 2008 economic crisis was caused by the rich people’s piles of money crashing onto everybody’s houses.

This isn’t an unfair symbol of what really happened: the fact is that the housing bubble and crash were caused by very wealth investment bankers who said they could turn crappy mortgages into AAA bonds, and a very wealthy investment community that gave them trillions of dollars because they believed them.

The video responds to this segment by claiming that rich people had nothing to do with the crash and that it was really caused by low interest rates from the federal reserve, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, and of course the government forcing banks to lend to people who couldn’t afford it.

These lies about the cause of the crash are what the video meant when the rich people responded to the truth by trying to blame everything on other people: “look over there! Look over there!”


They are not "lies", they are the actual facts of what caused the crash...
So called "rich people" ie. banks had to do something with the bad loans the government forced them to do, i.e. loans with no or very low money down, no proof of income, etc. etc.

I actually worked briefly in the real estate loan market during the main pre-crash period that liberals had forced banks into loosening their rules. We ALL knew what was happening, but THEY HAD TO FOLLOW THE LAW.

What you are doing is like trying to blame the people who take welfare because they "qualify", when the actual blame resides with the government who said they qualify. Of course, that's not actually a good analogy, because a person isn't "forced" to take welfare, but banks and loan company's most certainly WERE forced to lower their standards so "everyone could own a home" the liberal mantra.
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_ajax18
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Re: Tax the Rich: An Animated Fairy Tale

Post by _ajax18 »

Yes, because government isn't interested in quarterly statements and ever increasing profits (via increasing costs).


Tuition goes up. The costs I pay to be a medicare provider would go up if I took medicare. Then I pay another $500 fee each year to have the right to give people controlled substances that really need them. It goes on an on. The amount of equipment you have to buy to practice at the standard of care goes up. Malpractice insurance goes up. These things go up because consumers demand the very best quality in health care. After all, life is priceless, correct? I guess it's priceless until people realize that they will have to be paying for it themselves. Then some hard decisions are made by good honest consumers on what they can and cannot afford. And that's who should be making those decisions, not a Washington bureaucret.

I haven't gotten rich on this profession, nor will I ever. Twice my income wouldn't make me a part of the $250,000+ crowd. I'd hate to see the medical profession sink to the level of public school teaching which is where I see it headed.

I always get a kick out of people who think I should work on them for free, since we all deserve healthcare right? Do you think these same people would be willing to build me a house for free, give me my car that I need so I don't have to pay for it. I doubt they every thought of it the other way around.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_cinepro
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Re: Tax the Rich: An Animated Fairy Tale

Post by _cinepro »

Analytics wrote:The video responds to this segment by claiming that rich people had nothing to do with the crash and that it was really caused by low interest rates from the federal reserve, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, and of course the government forcing banks to lend to people who couldn’t afford it.


The critique discusses this at 7:03, and it sounds to me like the criticism is against the Union video's simplistic presentation of the causes of the bubble and crash. He isn't saying that "rich people had nothing to do with it", he is only pointing out that there were many other factors that should at least be mentioned .

And we don't need to talk about this like it's ancient history. Ever since the crash, the government has done everything it can to try and recreate the conditions of the bubble to prop up house prices: low-interest, low-down-payment loans to people who couldn't get a loan from someone who actually expected to get their money back.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012 ... rest-rates

And while we're on the subject of the bubble and crash, I just saw that the government is selling the last of our AIG stock with a net profit.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... 8270.story

I still oppose the AIG bailout, but that's definitely a good way to end it. Now if we can just manage to get out of Fannie and Freddie, GM, Ally financial and TARP without losing money....

http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/main/summary
_Analytics
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Re: Tax the Rich: An Animated Fairy Tale

Post by _Analytics »

cinepro wrote:
Analytics wrote:The video responds to this segment by claiming that rich people had nothing to do with the crash and that it was really caused by low interest rates from the federal reserve, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, and of course the government forcing banks to lend to people who couldn’t afford it.


The critique discusses this at 7:03, and it sounds to me like the criticism is against the Union video's simplistic presentation of the causes of the bubble and crash. He isn't saying that "rich people had nothing to do with it", he is only pointing out that there were many other factors that should at least be mentioned .

My point remains that the other factors that he claims should be mentioned weren't really causes of the crash at all, but rather are lies that were made up to exculpate the real perpetrators.


cinepro wrote:And we don't need to talk about this like it's ancient history. Ever since the crash, the government has done everything it can to try and recreate the conditions of the bubble to prop up house prices: low-interest, low-down-payment loans to people who couldn't get a loan from someone who actually expected to get their money back.


"Look over there! Look over there!" The crash wasn't caused by the government. The government didn't force companies to make loans to people who didn't qualify. The government didn't lower long-term interest rates. The crash was caused by free-market players who eagerly loaned money to people who qualified using the criteria under which the free-market lenders agreed to make the loans and which were established by the free-market investment banks. And they aren't repeating their mistakes.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

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_honorentheos
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Re: Tax the Rich: An Animated Fairy Tale

Post by _honorentheos »

Analytics wrote:
cinepro wrote:And we don't need to talk about this like it's ancient history. Ever since the crash, the government has done everything it can to try and recreate the conditions of the bubble to prop up house prices: low-interest, low-down-payment loans to people who couldn't get a loan from someone who actually expected to get their money back.


"Look over there! Look over there!" The crash wasn't caused by the government. The government didn't force companies to make loans to people who didn't qualify. The government didn't lower long-term interest rates. The crash was caused by free-market players who eagerly loaned money to people who qualified using the criteria under which the free-market lenders agreed to make the loans and which were established by the free-market investment banks. And they aren't repeating their mistakes.

I really enjoyed the book All the Devils are Here that talks about the crash and it's causes. The authors chose the title because just about everyone has some fault in the crash.

While I agree that wall street types bear the greater fault, it's also true that the reason they made the highly risky loans was in part because they actually didn't think there was a risk: the government was going to bail them out no matter what happened. Fanny/Freddie represented a false safety net. True libertarian proponents of free markets point to the depth of the crash as an example of misguided market interference because, they argue, if it wasn't for the belief in this safety net the number of high risk loans would have been limited to the high risk taking segment of the financial industry rather than becoming the norm. I'd say rightly so, since the regulatory side of the interference equation was almost completely lacking.

That said, even with all of the pro-housing market manipulation, the financial sector is wholely responsible for the invention and destructive effectives of credit default swaps and other synthetics. An example of the financials playing with a toy chemistry set thinking they are too smart to be wrong while trying to make lead into gold...and blowing up the building.

Anyway, here's a good article on the government's part in causing the crisis.
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_Analytics
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Re: Tax the Rich: An Animated Fairy Tale

Post by _Analytics »

honorentheos wrote:I really enjoyed the book All the Devils are Here that talks about the crash and it's causes. The authors chose the title because just about everyone has some fault in the crash.

While I agree that wall street types bear the greater fault, it's also true that the reason they made the highly risky loans was in part because they actually didn't think there was a risk: the government was going to bail them out no matter what happened. Fanny/Freddie represented a false safety net. True libertarian proponents of free markets point to the depth of the crash as an example of misguided market interference because, they argue, if it wasn't for the belief in this safety net the number of high risk loans would have been limited to the high risk taking segment of the financial industry rather than becoming the norm. I'd say rightly so, since the regulatory side of the interference equation was almost completely lacking.

That said, even with all of the pro-housing market manipulation, the financial sector is wholely responsible for the invention and destructive effectives of credit default swaps and other synthetics. An example of the financials playing with a toy chemistry set thinking they are too smart to be wrong while trying to make lead into gold...and blowing up the building.

Anyway, here's a good article on the government's part in causing the crisis.

It’s true that I’m being more than a little simplistic in assigning all of the blame to the free markets—the government plays a role. And understating my feelings as much as possible, I’m not a fan of George W. Bush, so throwing him and his administration under the bus is tempting.

But the fact remains that if you understand all of the moving pieces, you can build a model that captures most everything that was going on:

Demand: There was a huge demand for mortgages. Several factors contributed to that—the idea that homes were a good investment, tax breaks on mortgage interest, cable TV shows that showed people making money flipping houses, low interest rates, etc. The only major piece of the demand for mortgages that the government is responsible for is the home mortgage deduction. The Federal Reserve didn’t cause there to be low long-term interest rates. The market determines those. To be fair, the Fed is responsible for low short-term interest rates, which made adjustable-rate mortgages appealing.

Supply: There was a huge supply of money that people wanted to invest in long-term investments—the supply was much bigger than the demand. It was this huge supply that drove down the long-term interest rates and actually funded the mortgages. The money was supplied by rich savers having a lot of money they wanted to save. This supply made it to the market because investment banks claimed they could turn crappy mortgages into good ones through the magic of securitization. The private organizations that rate bonds believed the investment banks, and the investment community believed the banks. It’s true that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac played the game with the investment banks. And the investors made choices between buying AAA bonds from Lehman Brothers that yielded 4.5%, or AAA bonds from Fannie Mae that yielded 4.25%. These rates were determined by the markets, and the differences--25 basis points in this example—is how much the market valued the implicit guarantee that if needed, the government would bail out Fannie Mae.

Once this model is correctly set up, you can play around with it and see what would happen if you change things. You quickly discover that the crisis was actually quite robust. If the Fed would have raised short-term interest rates, more unqualified people would have taken out fixed long-term rates rather than ARMs. If Fannie Mae would have held tight underwriting standards, the spread between Fannie bonds and Investment Bank bonds would have risen, and more money would have flowed through the investment banks. But with all of those changes, the crisis still happens—it just changes what financial institution is holding the mortgage when it went bad.

The only change that seriously take the steam out of the whole mess is to change the perceptions of the “sophisticated” free-market purchasers of mortgage-backed securities and their belief about the viability of the “credit enhancements” that investment bankers put into the securities they were peddling. Because of that, they must receive the bulk of the blame.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

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_cinepro
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Re: Tax the Rich: An Animated Fairy Tale

Post by _cinepro »

Analytics wrote:"Look over there! Look over there!" The crash wasn't caused by the government. The government didn't force companies to make loans to people who didn't qualify. The government didn't lower long-term interest rates. The crash was caused by free-market players who eagerly loaned money to people who qualified using the criteria under which the free-market lenders agreed to make the loans and which were established by the free-market investment banks. And they aren't repeating their mistakes.


Wall Street might be many things, but when it comes to the housing bubble and crash, they were most definitely not "free market players"!

If you go through all the different "players" in the bubble and crash, from home buyers to the real estate industry to the mortgage industry to the Wall Street firms to the ratings agencies to the government agencies (and "government-sponsored entities") to the Federal Reserve Bank to the investors pumping money into the system from all over the world, it it an interesting exercise to look at each individual participant and ask "Why did they do what they did?"

And usually the answer isn't just "greed". The reason it isn't just "greed" is because even (or especially) greedy people don't want to lose their money. Up until the crash, most participants honestly thought they weren't exposed to much risk! That includes the home buyers, who were told prices always go up and they could refinance, and the mortgage lenders who thought they could always sell the mortgages to investors (and thus avoid any risk), to the investors who were told by the ratings agencies that there was no risk.

So while "greed" was obviously a factor for most participants, there were also sincerely good intentions, and a huge amount of ignorance.

As for the government's part in creating the whole mess, here's what even the Village Voice admitted:

Andrew Cuomo, the youngest Housing and Urban Development secretary in history, made a series of decisions between 1997 and 2001 that gave birth to the country's current crisis. He took actions that—in combination with many other factors—helped plunge Fannie and Freddie into the subprime markets without putting in place the means to monitor their increasingly risky investments. He turned the Federal Housing Administration mortgage program into a sweetheart lender with sky-high loan ceilings and no money down, and he legalized what a federal judge has branded "kickbacks" to brokers that have fueled the sale of overpriced and unsupportable loans. Three to four million families are now facing foreclosure, and Cuomo is one of the reasons why.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 2000, Cuomo required a quantum leap in the number of affordable, low-to-moderate-income loans that the two mortgage banks—known collectively as Government Sponsored Enterprises—would have to buy. The GSEs don't actually sell mortgages to borrowers. They buy them from banks and mortgage companies, allowing lenders to replenish their capital and make more loans. They also purchase mortgage-backed securities, which are pools of mortgages regularly acquired by the GSEs from investment firms. The government chartered these banks to pump money into the mortgage market and, while they did it, to make a strong enough profit to attract shareholders. That created a tug-of-war between their efforts to maximize shareholder value, which drove them toward high-end mortgages, and their congressionally mandated obligation to finance loans for those who needed help. The 1992 law required HUD's secretary to make sure housing goals were being met and, every four years, set new goals for Fannie and Freddie.

Cuomo's predecessor, Henry Cisneros, did that for the first time in December 1995, taking a cautious approach and moving the GSEs toward a requirement that 42 percent of their mortgages serve low- and moderate-income families. Cuomo raised that number to 50 percent and dramatically hiked GSE mandates to buy mortgages in underserved neighborhoods and for the "very-low-income." Part of the pitch was racial, with Cuomo contending that Fannie and Freddie weren't granting mortgages to minorities at the same rate as the private market. William Apgar, Cuomo's top aide, told The Washington Post: "We believe that there are a lot of loans to black Americans that could be safely purchased by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac if these companies were more flexible."

http://www.villagevoice.com/content/pri ... on/541234/
_Analytics
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Re: Tax the Rich: An Animated Fairy Tale

Post by _Analytics »

cinepro wrote:Wall Street might be many things, but when it comes to the housing bubble and crash, they were most definitely not "free market players"!

If you go through all the different "players" in the bubble and crash, from home buyers to the real estate industry to the mortgage industry to the Wall Street firms to the ratings agencies to the government agencies (and "government-sponsored entities") to the Federal Reserve Bank to the investors pumping money into the system from all over the world, it it an interesting exercise to look at each individual participant and ask "Why did they do what they did?"

And usually the answer isn't just "greed". …

Whether you label their decisions as “greed” or “sincerely endeavoring to be responsible citizens,” it doesn’t change my basic point: a well-functioning market connected unqualified people who wanted to take out mortgages with a supply of private capital from an industry that thought they could safely loan the money through the magic of securitization. It was absolutely a free market.
cinepro wrote:
Andrew Cuomo, the youngest Housing and Urban Development secretary in history, made a series of decisions between 1997 and 2001 that gave birth to the country's current crisis. He took actions that—in combination with many other factors—helped plunge Fannie and Freddie into the subprime markets without putting in place the means to monitor their increasingly risky investments….

Andrew Cuomo made decisions that escalated the GSA’s involvement in the crisis, but he didn’t make the decisions that caused the crisis itself.

With better judgment, the GSA’s could have done things differently, maintained their credit standards, and steered clear of the crisis. But the mortgage crisis itself would have happened anyway. The GSA’s were merely intermediaries between mortgage originators and capital markets. The investment banks were intermediaries too, competing for the same investors and the same borrowers. The loosening of credit standards was led by private investment banks and was driven by their own profit motives. With 20-20 hindsight, the GSA’s stupidly tried to compete and remain relevant. If they would have pulled out, the private investment banks would have completely filled the void of the GSA’s departure, and the crisis would have happened anyway.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.

-Yuval Noah Harari
_honorentheos
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Re: Tax the Rich: An Animated Fairy Tale

Post by _honorentheos »

Analytics wrote:...the fact remains that if you understand all of the moving pieces, you can build a model that captures most everything that was going on:

Demand: The only major piece of the demand for mortgages that the government is responsible for is the home mortgage deduction.

Not true.

There's plenty of blame to go around, both in and out of government. And both in republican as well as democrat-led presidencies and legislatures.

There's the repeal of Glass-Steagall signed under Clinton, for example.

There's the Single Family Tax Credit Act signed under Bush.

The American Dream Down Payment Act signed under Bush is another.

The SEC's change of the Net Capital Rule in 2004 - a big problem causing change to an agency that lacked the manpower and political will to also include the real regulation that would have been needed to make the rule change work.

As Cinepro pointed out above, a major contributor to the crisis was the climate created in the early to mid 2000's where investors and home owners seriously did not believe they were risking much in the housing market while they had much to gain. Many of the signals they were picking up were coming from the federal government whose support of increasing home ownership, almost at any cost, was a major contributing factor to the housing bubble and resulting crisis.

All of this affected demand.

Frankly, there was a lot of parties to be blamed. The government is one and should not be shielded from criticism. I agree with Cinepro on an earlier point in this regard: failure to understand the mechanisms that caused the problem leads to recreating them. I think your model is wrong because it over-simplifies where the problems had their roots and pushes too much of the blame onto one side.

That type of over-simplified model is also behind the views of the conservatives I hear complaining about Dodd-Frank. It's just mirrored.

It's another example of how polarized we are and how this polarization "F"s the whole country. Like damned kids bickering at a table trying to place blame on everyone or anyone else.

Seriously, where did the grown-ups go?
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_cinepro
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Re: Tax the Rich: An Animated Fairy Tale

Post by _cinepro »

Analytics wrote: The Federal Reserve didn’t cause there to be low long-term interest rates. The market determines those. [/i] To be fair, the Fed is responsible for low short-term interest rates, which made adjustable-rate mortgages appealing.


Here are some different views on the Fed and the housing bubble:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123811225716453243.html


The only change that seriously take the steam out of the whole mess is to change the perceptions of the “sophisticated” free-market purchasers of mortgage-backed securities and their belief about the viability of the “credit enhancements” that investment bankers put into the securities they were peddling. Because of that, they must receive the bulk of the blame.


If we have to assign the "bulk of the blame" to someone, then I vote for the credit ratings agencies (Moody's, S&P and Fitch). At the end of the day, they had set themselves up as the authorities on risk, and the reliable source of information about risk. If they had accurately rated the mortgaged backed securities, there would have been less ignorance in the system. And in order for a free market to operate efficiently, there has to be good information.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-0 ... tings.html

Other people saw what was happening during the bubble and tried to warn us. The fact that the credit ratings agencies dropped the ball is absurd, and I can't believe they are still in business.
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