Man is as intelligent as God

[_Tobin]

One may disagree with Widstoe, but Widstoe's authority on what Mormon terms mean overshadows Franktalks and Tobins opinions by more than a little. And if Franktalk doesn't agree with Widstoe, perhaps that can be permitted, but, he'd have to argue that Widstoe, and probably even Joseph Smith himself, are the ones guilty of redefining terms in the Bible so that they can be understood in the context of "science," not Dr. W. Dr. W is just commenting on what Mormonism itself has established. Many apologists wish to go the route of making science and religion two categories of knowledge or even reality, in order to save their beliefs from the microscope, but they'd do better to pick another religion in that case.

I'd very much like you to state how I've disagreed with what Joseph Smith actually said here. My posts were restricted to how Joseph Smith could be correct about the eternal nature of intelligences. I'd enjoy an open and honest discussion and would be more than willing to discuss any insights you might have without the devious and deceitful behaviour that DrW has demonstrated. That is the only problem I've seen so far with this thread.

[_Franktalk]

Gadianton,

There are many spirits that believe that spirits occupy objects before they occupy a form in the flesh. I do not know about this. I sure don't know. But I respect people who are open to new information. I have no revelation concerning this, neither have I asked the Holy Ghost about it.

But from scripture we might be able to get a hint if these things are possible.

Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Num 22:30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.

Jos 10:12 Then spoke Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

I guess some could look some verses and say the creation acts as if it has a spirit. Or you could say these are all figurative. Now there are those who say that everything in the physical universe has a corresponding image in the spiritual realm.

Right now I am pretty busy with different areas of thought. But I am sure that you might find more information on the net.

http://healing.about.com/b/2009/12/12/t ... -rocks.htm

"Talking with rocks comes natural to me. When walking along a beach or creek a rock will speak to you if it wants your attention."

[_LittleNipper]

1 Corinthians 1:19 ►


New International Version (©1984)
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."
New Living Translation (©2007)
As the Scriptures say, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and discard the intelligence of the intelligent."

English Standard Version (©2001)
For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I will set aside the understanding of the experts.

International Standard Version (©2012)
For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will reject."

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For it is written: “I shall destroy the wisdom of the wise, and I shall take away the opinions of the intelligent.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Scripture says, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise. I will reject the intelligence of intelligent people."

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

American King James Version
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

American Standard Version
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the discernment of the discerning will I bring to nought.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For it is written: I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the prudence of the prudent I will reject.

Darby Bible Translation
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and set aside the understanding of the understanding ones.

English Revised Version
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the prudence of the prudent will I reject.

Webster's Bible Translation
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

Weymouth New Testament
For so it stands written, "I will exhibit the nothingness of the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought."

World English Bible
For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, I will bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing."

Young's Literal Translation
for it hath been written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;'

[_LittleNipper]

Job 38
New International Version (NIV)

The Lord Speaks
1 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:

2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!

22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?

34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom
or gives the rooster understanding?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?

[_LittleNipper]

Job 39
New International Version (NIV)

1 “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.

5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.

9 “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?

13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.

19 “Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.
26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”

[_LittleNipper]

Job 40 NIV

1 The Lord said to Job:
2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3 Then Job answered the Lord:

4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:
7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15 “Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20 The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?

[_LittleNipper]

Job 41
New International Version (NIV)

1 “Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6 Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has[c] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”

[_Gadianton]

I guess some could look some verses and say the creation acts as if it has a spirit. Or you could say these are all figurative. Now there are those who say that everything in the physical universe has a corresponding image in the spiritual realm.

Have you ever studied Theosophy? I would recommend you study C. W. Leadbeater's works. In Mormonism, the spiritual realm is really just the physical realm, as Joseph Smith explained, it's matter that is more "fine". If you want to believe in a non-physical realm of the spiritual, Mormonism is a horrible vehicle of expression.

[_Franktalk]

Have you ever studied Theosophy? I would recommend you study C. W. Leadbeater's works. In Mormonism, the spiritual realm is really just the physical realm, as Joseph Smith explained, it's matter that is more "fine". If you want to believe in a non-physical realm of the spiritual, Mormonism is a horrible vehicle of expression.

Just a few thoughts on this subject:

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

You might want to ponder this for a while. If you believe that energy can't be created but refashioned it is here. If you want to see eternal power in God before the creation it is here. If you see the invisible things of God while looking at the physical universe it is here. If you can't see these things then it states you are without excuse. What do you believe?

So tell me, has science found this more refined matter? Post a picture of it.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

V/R
Dr. Cam