Albion wrote:Presumably, your claim that Mittens knows nothing of scripture is based on the belief that what you have accepted within Mormonism is the correct interpretation...this passage in particular. While I would not go so far as to say that the man Abraham gave his tithes to was Jesus, he was what might be termed a "type" of Jesus. Whoever this man was, it does not negate the fact that only Jesus is described in scripture as being a "high priest after the order of Melchizedec". To fit the role of the one who could make the ultimate atonement "once and for all" and enter the holy of holies "once and for all" Jesus became our great high priest...the only one we have need of. Previous high priests, of which there was only one at a time, held the Levitical priesthood, a priesthood by tribal right, but since Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi he did not hold this priesthood, thus his higher priesthood. Perhaps you can provide a single Biblical reference of anyone else, besides these two, holding the Melchizedec priesthood.
So do you embrace our dear friend's idea that Melchezedec was a preincarnated Jesus?
And to answer your question - Moses was a priest after this order. After all, by what authority or priesthood did Moses do the things he did? Hmmmm? I'll tell you it wasn't the Levitical priesthood.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Albion wrote:Presumably, your claim that Mittens knows nothing of scripture is based on the belief that what you have accepted within Mormonism is the correct interpretation...this passage in particular. While I would not go so far as to say that the man Abraham gave his tithes to was Jesus, he was what might be termed a "type" of Jesus. Whoever this man was, it does not negate the fact that only Jesus is described in scripture as being a "high priest after the order of Melchizedec". To fit the role of the one who could make the ultimate atonement "once and for all" and enter the holy of holies "once and for all" Jesus became our great high priest...the only one we have need of. Previous high priests, of which there was only one at a time, held the Levitical priesthood, a priesthood by tribal right, but since Jesus was not of the tribe of Levi he did not hold this priesthood, thus his higher priesthood. Perhaps you can provide a single Biblical reference of anyone else, besides these two, holding the Melchizedec priesthood.
So do you embrace our dear friend's idea that Melchezedec was a preincarnated Jesus?
And to answer your question - Moses was a priest after this order. After all, by what authority or priesthood did Moses do the things he did? Hmmmm? I'll tell you it wasn't the Levitical priesthood.
Chapter and verse in Bible or Book of Mormon where Moses or any one else held Melchizedec Priest hood.
Justice = Getting what you deserve Mercy = Not getting what you deserve Grace = Getting what you can never deserve
Tobin, please reread my post which clearly states where I stand on the question you asked. I second Mittens request for chapter and verse on Moses' ordination to the Melchizedec Priesthood, or anyone else in the Bible other than Jesus for that matter. I realize that "authority" is a big issue for Mormons in supporting their idea of priesthood but Moses received his "authority" directly from God through his burning bush experience. "So now, go, I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt." If having the MP was so important to the assignment it surely would have been mentioned.
Albion wrote:Tobin, please reread my post which clearly states where I stand on the question you asked. I second Mittens request for chapter and verse on Moses' ordination to the Melchizedec Priesthood, or anyone else in the Bible other than Jesus for that matter. I realize that "authority" is a big issue for Mormons in supporting their idea of priesthood but Moses received his "authority" directly from God through his burning bush experience. "So now, go, I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt." If having the MP was so important to the assignment it surely would have been mentioned.
First, you didn't answer my question. Do you really believe that Melchezedec was a preincarnated Jesus? And if not, then you have your answer. After all, where does it say Melchezedec was ordained to this priesthood and who gave it to him? hint: God.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Mittens wrote:Chapter and verse in Bible or Book of Mormon where Moses or any one else held Melchizedec Priest hood.
You first. Chapter and verse in the Bible where it states who gave the priesthood to Melchizedec or Jesus Christ? It is funny watching you two stumble around in the dark trying to come to terms with the fact we are talking about the priesthood of God here.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin, as I said, Melchizedec was a "type" of Jesus...symbolizing in every way holy God. It might have been a literal appearing of God...we just don't know but since God incarnate in Jesus had not taken place I don't think there is any question about reincarnation, a concept I reject. We know only that he was so holy a person that even Abraham gave him tithes. I reject your reasoning that because we do not have a record of Melchizedec being ordained it must therefor be the reason why no other ordinations are mentioned in scripture. That to me is flawed reasoning in the extreme and since it is Mormonism that lays claim to a priesthood that only Christ is holy enough to hold I believe the onus is on Mormonism to prove its claim....and it can't. Melchizedec was vastly superior to the Levitical priests, from whom the High Priest (only one at a time) was chosen...chiefly to perform the rite of atonement on behalf of the people year after year after year on the day set aside for that purpose. Christ who is of the order of Melchizedec is also superior in his high priesthood to all other priesthood which is swallowed up in his as is the need for temple ritual. His atonement provided the ultimate sacrifice for sin, he as our only High Priest entered the real Holy of Holies, once and for all, to make intercession on behalf of all mankind and sat down at the right hand of God....this very act a symbol of the end of need for any other high priest but him alone. Of all the claims of Mormonism this usurping of Christ's Holy Priesthood is the most presumptuous of all.
Albion wrote:Tobin, as I said, Melchizedec was a "type" of Jesus...symbolizing in every way holy God. It might have been a literal appearing of God...we just don't know but since God incarnate in Jesus had not taken place I don't think there is any question about reincarnation, a concept I reject. We know only that he was so holy a person that even Abraham gave him tithes. I reject your reasoning that because we do not have a record of Melchizedec being ordained it must therefor be the reason why no other ordinations are mentioned in scripture. That to me is flawed reasoning in the extreme and since it is Mormonism that lays claim to a priesthood that only Christ is holy enough to hold I believe the onus is on Mormonism to prove its claim....and it can't. Melchizedec was vastly superior to the Levitical priests, from whom the High Priest (only one at a time) was chosen...chiefly to perform the rite of atonement on behalf of the people year after year after year on the day set aside for that purpose. Christ who is of the order of Melchizedec is also superior in his high priesthood to all other priesthood which is swallowed up in his as is the need for temple ritual. His atonement provided the ultimate sacrifice for sin, he as our only High Priest entered the real Holy of Holies, once and for all, to make intercession on behalf of all mankind and sat down at the right hand of God....this very act a symbol of the end of need for any other high priest but him alone. Of all the claims of Mormonism this usurping of Christ's Holy Priesthood is the most presumptuous of all.
Yes, yes, and how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? You can spout as much non-sense was you wish. I'm not buying it. We are talking about the priesthood of God here, call it whatever you want. I will note you admitted that Moses had this priesthood as well and got it from exactly the same place that Melchizedec did - as have all these high priests and prophets of the Lord. The real reason I think your position is so completely ridiculous is you are saying that no one can receive God's priesthood any longer. But I'm sure that fits in with the rest of the perversion of the Gospel you supposed Christians (what a distasteful thing to call you because you deny God at every turn) believe. You deny God speaks today, you deny and ridicule his prophets, you turn your back on his words when he gives them to you, and you deny his priesthood. So I'm unsurprised you hold the views you do, as preposterous as they clearly are.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin, I'll dispense with the need to respond to your charges...all except one....I did not acknowledge anywhere in my posts that Moses held any kind of priesthood. If you read that into anything I said let me make that clear. When you can get around to providing the references for anyone between Melchizedec himself and Jesus holding the MP, we can have a real discussion. Simply put, the absence of something does not prove that that something really is. On that basis we might as well believe in pink flying elephants because they're not mentioned in scripture either.
Albion wrote:Tobin, I'll dispense with the need to respond to your charges...all except one....I did not acknowledge anywhere in my posts that Moses held any kind of priesthood. If you read that into anything I said let me make that clear. When you can get around to providing the references for anyone between Melchizedec himself and Jesus holding the MP, we can have a real discussion. Simply put, the absence of something does not prove that that something really is. On that basis we might as well believe in pink flying elephants because they're not mentioned in scripture either.
Uh huh.
Albion wrote:Tobin, please reread my post which clearly states where I stand on the question you asked. I second Mittens request for chapter and verse on Moses' ordination to the Melchizedec Priesthood, or anyone else in the Bible other than Jesus for that matter. I realize that "authority" is a big issue for Mormons in supporting their idea of priesthood but Moses received his "authority" directly from God through his burning bush experience. "So now, go, I am sending you to Pharaoh to bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt." If having the MP was so important to the assignment it surely would have been mentioned.
Maybe that was some other Albion. As I said, your position is non-sense. We are talking about God's priesthod (his authority)!!! Your response is to deny he had that, but admit he had that (how's that for a head turner?!?). Let me clarify - your argument is that the Melchizedec Priesthood is something OTHER THAN god's authority or priesthood. But you can't tell me what it is then?!? You admit that Moses had God's authority or priesthood, but he didn't have the special Melchizedec form of God's priesthood, which in all appearances IS God's priesthood. As I said, utter non-sense.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
The confusion is solely yours. The Mormon position as I understand it is that the MP and authority are synonymous. Therein lies your problem. Have you found any scriptures yet to support that position. I thought not.