Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

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jpatterson
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Re: Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

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Aristotle Smith
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Re: Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

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Last edited by Aristotle Smith on Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

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Meadowchik wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:50 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:29 pm


Yeah, I’m not tracking Meadowchik’s ‘thrust’ as it were. MC, can you just state unequivocally what you’re trying to say, because it feels muddled.

- Doc
I thought it was pretty obvious and to the point. RFM and Dehlin appear to be buddies. And more to the point, Dehlin's MS audience likely feeds into RFM's audience.
Ah. I see. I think you’re spot on. It’s clear John Dehlin used Consig and BR to massage the situation - I don’t mean that in a nefarious collusion sort of way, but John Dehlin was definitely teasing out some details, just enough, to keep the overall narrative favorable to him and Open Stories Foundation. Consig was right to publish and broadcast his findings. He’s under no obligation to have KK’s, KE’s, or Rosebud’s supporters to call in with deflections, accusations, or whatever else that’d distract from the message he wanted to craft and present. It’s his show. I’m looking forward to your thoughts on the topic when you’re in a place to do so, good luck with your exams.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

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jpatterson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:50 pm
... I've examined a ton of evidence which is how I've arrived at my conclusion.
Have you any ‘evidence’ that you examined that hasn’t been posted here or published somewhere else? You need to put it up or acknowledge you’re just talking out your ass.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
jpatterson
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Re: Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

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Aristotle Smith wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 5:00 pm

Sorry, half a million dollars over 10 years isn't lucrative. That's lower middle class.
Okay, well I don't want to quibble over the word lucrative. Let's just say he created a decent amount of cheddar out of nothing. I was way off on my estimate, actually.

John's Open Stories Foundation pay:

2010: $27,429
2011: $40,000
2012: $56,200
2013: $89,573
2014: $98,813
2015: $91,308
2016: $96,250
2017: $109,500
2018: $201,982
2019: $236,021

Total: $1,047,076
Last edited by jpatterson on Wed May 05, 2021 5:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

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jpatterson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 4:40 pm
John absolutely has the skills, but I believe at the moment his head is too clouded with paranoia about the path he has chosen and its sustainability. John made an intentional decision many many years ago to make a living off agitating the church. At some point along the way I believe (based on personal conversations with him) that the prospect of doing that for the rest of his life seemed exhausting. I think getting his PhD was a way to create a stream of income quasi-related to his agitation where he could counsel people through faith crisis and provide the kind of resources he wishes he had when he was going through his own faith transition.

Along the way, he began to see how lucrative the agitating could be. Regardless of what you think about his scruples, he has managed to pull down over a half million dollars in personal income over the last 10 years through Mormon Stories. That's nothing to shake a stick at. I don't have any information on this, but I would venture to say his "coaching" business has not taken off like he hoped it would. His website currently says he's "on sabbatical" from coaching.

I think John is now worried that the only way to make it through retirement and help put his kids through college is by continuing to agitate the church in a way that drives clicks to his website and dollars to his foundation. He feels stuck and exhausted.

So I think all of that clouds any opportunity he might have for introspection.
No matter what you choose to do in life, any decision you make will narrow your options in certain ways moving forward. His choice of throwing so much of himself into faith transitions narrowed his choices moving forward. It is easy to feel trapped and that there are no other options. I don't know what John Dehlin is thinking, so I can't say. Nothing you have written seems implausible, although the use of language like "paranoia" is a little prejudicial, in my opinion.

In any case, influencers are known to wear themselves out with the demands of their career. It is not uncommon. Once there was enough data out there on the topic, I felt thankful that I had never tried anything of the sort, although I am also inclined to think that my self-assessment of my meager talents was wisely cautioning me against that. I can sympathize with John Dehlin. I don't know that the influencer gig is a good thing, and yet I have no particular urge to take them on as my crusade.
First, I appreciate your attempt to introduce nuance into this discussion. I admit it's something I have lacked over the last week.

On a whole, if I allow myself to go down the road of moral relativism you're traveling in your last paragraph, nothing ever gets done and existence has little meaning. So I'm not really interested in that.
To the contrary, there is nothing relativistic about acknowledging that some business models are immoral and destructive.
Again, all credit to John. He identified a market (disaffected Mormons), identified a highly effective method of communication (podcasts before podcasts were cool) and then aligned it with a long-term business strategy (faith crisis coaching).

I know for a fact John mentioned to me many times that he is sick of spending time on his podcast arguing the truth claims of the church and arguing about apologists, etc etc and would really like to move the podcast on to topics entirely devoted to helping people move on in healthy ways from religion. I think, personally, that he wishes he could transition MSP into more of a catch-all resource for disaffected religious people.

But he has not been able to successfully make that transition. Every time he tries, his numbers plummet. He is hyper aware of what type of content drives donations, and he adjust his content decisions based on that. I know that he knows that controversial topics that generate lots of chatter result in more money in his pocket. And so he's stuck between doing what he thinks is most helpful for people and doing what will drive the most clicks. It's very similar to the dilemma the journalism industry has been facing since transitioning to digital platforms.

Do I think that is "diabolical"? I dunno, that seems like a loaded term that won't get us anywhere. I just believe that John ultimately is not doing what he knows is in the best interest of those in the midst of a faith crisis--help them move on.

I feel better when I don't come here and obsess over John Dehlin. But I have a hard time moving on. People generally feel better when they're not constantly sucked into post-Mormon drama. But John's content keeps them there. I don't think that's necessarily evil, but I'm not sure it's ethical, either.
OK. Fair enough. I appreciate your "insider's view." More than one novel or film includes the trope about the person who took the compromise job and yearns to write the great American novel, etc. Those who have been around here for a while can tell you that long ago I opined that John Dehlin should stay away from this community building he was engaging in. It is somewhat ironic that this is where Rosebud felt she really shined, and further ironic that this is not really your cup of tea. Of course, I am supposing that you and Rosebud believe--although perhaps I should not assume--that Rosebud would have done things the right and healthy way, whereas John Dehlin really got stuck in criticizing the LDS Church to remain solvent.

So, John Dehlin has become a kind of media personality who focuses on the dark side of Mormonism and caters to people who are leaving the LDS Church. He had hopes of helping people improve their lives, but he could not support his family as a secular guru and so he had to cut that out. I dunno. At some point we need to take responsibility for our own choices. Many people do move on from Mormonism entirely, and they manage to come out healthy, well-adjusted people. I think that's great. Others remain Mormon in their own way. It is a culture, a way of life, a way of seeing the world. It's a complicated thing.

Your own feelings about people keeping John stuck (or vice versa) sound not unlike your feelings about your own situation. You would like to move on, but you feel like you are being pulled back in by the cause. The same cause John failed at. Helping other people heal from a bad experience with _____________. I think those are noble desires, but I also think it is important to measure your response, do what you can, and then maintain a healthy balance in life.
Last edited by Kishkumen on Wed May 05, 2021 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
jpatterson
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Re: Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 5:08 pm
Have you any ‘evidence’ that you examined that hasn’t been posted here or published somewhere else?
Absolutely.

John has evidence that is directly linked to (comes directly before and after) what he presented on ML that he intentionally left out.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

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jpatterson wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 5:12 pm
Aristotle Smith wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 5:00 pm

Sorry, half a million dollars over 10 years isn't lucrative. That's lower middle class.
Okay, well I don't want to quibble over the word lucrative. Let's just say he created a decent amount of cheddar out of nothing. I was way off on my estimate, actually.

John's Open Stories Foundation pay:

2010: $27,429
2011: $40,000
2012: $56,200
2013: $89,573
2014: $98,813
2015: $91,308
2016: $96,250
2017: $109,500
2018: $201,982
2019: $236,021

Total: $1,1047,076
I think your math is off.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
jpatterson
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Re: Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

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Kishkumen wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 5:13 pm
Nothing you have written seems implausible, although the use of language like "paranoia" is a little prejudicial, in my opinion.
Fair point. I think he's continually stressed out about it and this stress and conflict drives much of his decision making.
Of course, I am supposing that you and Rosebud believe--although perhaps I should not assume--that Rosebud would have done things the right and healthy way, whereas John Dehlin really got stuck in criticizing the LDS Church to remain solvent.
That may be what Rosebud believes (she certainly believed it at the time) but it's absolutely not what I believe. I have no idea what would have happened if Open Stories Foundation had, say, split in two with Rosebud developing communities and John taking MSP. I don't really care to take that on as a mental exercise.

What I do know, based on evidence and my own experience, is that John is a crappy, crappy manager. He just sucks at managing things and people. And Rosebud was always really good at those things. They actually made quite a good team except for all the toxic sexual stuff.

I think John's lack of organizational skills and temperament are probably what have prevented him from scaling Open Stories Foundation the way he has wanted to over the years, and that's one of the great ironies of the whole situation.
Your own feelings about people keeping John stuck (or vice versa) sound not unlike your feelings about your own situation. You would like to move on, but you feel like you are being pulled back in by the cause. The same cause John failed at. Helping other people heal from a bad experience with _____________. I think those are noble desires, but I also think it is important to measure your response, do what you can, and then maintain a healthy balance in life.
Nail, meet hammer.
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Re: Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

Post by jpatterson »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 5:15 pm
I think your math is off.
Typo fixed, thanks.
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