Epic Mormonism Live on Rosebud Accusations

[Kukulkan]

Well said.

Maybe it would help to have a list of things that are and are not acceptable to keep bringing up here? On the first three pages of this forum I count five separate threads on Dan Peterson. Does that bother you at all? Dan's pretty insignificant and I don't doubt there are plenty of posters here who would love to see him get some comeuppance.

What about Lou Midgley? His name comes up quite often and I had to Google him he's so insignificant. Are we allowed to keep bringing him up and controversies surrounding him or do we all need to move on from him too?

I absolutely agree with you that this witch hunt of prominent figures in the Mormon and Exmormon spheres is unhealthy and unproductive. Would you agree that it is unhealthy? Including your fascination with the whole Rosebud and John Dehlin debacle?

[Aristotle Smith]

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[jpatterson]

Eventually that flame became a conflagration courtesy of Kwaku, KK and Company (with the consent if not encouragement of Rosebud)

I can't speak for anyone else, but there was no encouragement from Rosebud on my part and she had given me consent to talk about the documents I've reviewed if I so chose long before Kwaku even knew who Rosebud was. My understanding is Kwaku and Rosebud connected via Facebook after Kwaku's video (I'm not on Facebook anymore so I'm not sure. If you have evidence to the contrary or evidence that Kwaku and Rosebud were conspiring, I'm happy to entertain it.

The other thing you're missing is that John was part of the conflagration as well. His calculated PR statement in response to the Kwaku video in which he again called all accusations against him baseless raised my antennae for obvious reasons. He then went on Leah Remini's podcast and talked about being "fair gamed" in regards to baseless accusations of sexual harassment (at one point he asked Mike Rinder how to get allegations to go away and Mike told him if they're false eventually they just will...lol).

My point is John's not in a position to be using the word baseless here and in doing so, he stirred the pot among people who know more about the story (and I'm not talking about just me here. His denial generated a decent amount of chatter in the ex-Mo circles I plug into when need be. John is well within his rights to deny the accusations but to say they're baseless denies the realities of everything we know up to this point. There are reasonable, rational people who see the evidence as supporting harassment and abuse.

John then used Kwaku's video as justification for getting you to doxx Rosebud. (Apologies if I missed this, but what was your justification for doxxing Rosebud? Do you think it's okay to doxx someone just because they've been doxxed before?

I guess I'm not sure why you keep trying to paint yourself as impartial in this whole deal? It's obvious you have John's back, just as it's obvious I have Rosebud's back. Why not just own it?

[jpatterson]

I absolutely agree with you that this witch hunt of prominent figures in the Mormon and Exmormon spheres is unhealthy and unproductive. Would you agree that it is unhealthy? Including your fascination with the whole Rosebud and John Dehlin debacle?

I think your use of the word "fascination" is loaded but yes, I think the degree to which and the manner in which I have engaged has been at times (or I suppose most times?) unhealthy. I'm not convinced complete disengagement is the only solution, though.

[consiglieri]

Someone here said something about the Rosebud accusation causing a rift at in order to? Shame if so. I no longer listen to in order to because I am not into the current theme. Seems like there was a move away from Mormon content to “good living” or some such, i.e., the sort of thing Dehlin contemplated doing until he saw his downloads plummet.

Rosebud is the Yoko Ono of Infants on Thrones?

[master_dc]

You are very defensive mr. patterson.

this board discusses Mormonism... Dr. P and LM discuss Mormonism on a daily basis AND they have a history with this board AND participants of this board discuss the merits of the arguments discussed by those individuals, very much like the previous 77+ pages of this topic. This board is divided on the Dr. P topics. Some discuss his merits/scholarship others are so annoyed by him they get personal. But what I don't see is anyone out to destroy him for the sake of destroying him. His bad behavior is called out and discussed, and it is backed up by actual evidence of what is brought to discussion.

You and Rosebud receive the push back you do because your intentions are unclear and your arguments are incomplete/misguided. You are bouncing between financial improprieties that are purely speculative and sound bit like you are jealous of the money John Dehlin makes from his podcast. You all make it sound like the man is loaded/set for life. He ain't. 200k is not a small salary, but it is far from wealthy. He earns money from donations, good for him. People like his product, i don't, i don't pay, no difference to me. You do not have proof that he has done anything illegal with his finances. Rosebud was building this narrative up last time she was posting on the old board. Stop insinuating and do something about it. I am sure you have an eager audience in SLC that would love anyway possible to shut down John Dehlin. File lawsuits. If you get one to stick, no one here will be angry with you.

The participants here are basically pleading with you to put your money with your mouth is. Give the world the goods to change the Rosebud narrative, as you claim you are able to do. Her story is sad, tragic and messy as hell. I am sure she isn't lying about everything, but her truth is hard to follow and full of holes. The only EVIDENCE that has been shared publicly does not match her story. You are the ones who want this to play out in the court of public opinion, i am sure the world really doesn't want to hear about two Mormon adults describing their sexy time in the world's most awkward affair. Now is the time for your endgame, release the kraken, prove that you haven't just been blowing smoke. No more need for you and rosebud to post her narrative for the historians anymore, whatever that means. UNLEASH THE FURY!

[Dr Exiled]

You are very defensive mr. patterson.

this board discusses Mormonism... Dr. P and LM discuss Mormonism on a daily basis AND they have a history with this board AND participants of this board discuss the merits of the arguments discussed by those individuals, very much like the previous 77+ pages of this topic. This board is divided on the Dr. P topics. Some discuss his merits/scholarship others are so annoyed by him they get personal. But what I don't see is anyone out to destroy him for the sake of destroying him. His bad behavior is called out and discussed, and it is backed up by actual evidence of what is brought to discussion.

You and Rosebud receive the push back you do because your intentions are unclear and your arguments are incomplete/misguided. You are bouncing between financial improprieties that are purely speculative and sound bit like you are jealous of the money John Dehlin makes from his podcast. You all make it sound like the man is loaded/set for life. He ain't. 200k is not a small salary, but it is far from wealthy. He earns money from donations, good for him. People like his product, i don't, i don't pay, no difference to me. You do not have proof that he has done anything illegal with his finances. Rosebud was building this narrative up last time she was posting on the old board. Stop insinuating and do something about it. I am sure you have an eager audience in SLC that would love anyway possible to shut down John Dehlin. File lawsuits. If you get one to stick, no one here will be angry with you.

The participants here are basically pleading with you to put your money with your mouth is. Give the world the goods to change the Rosebud narrative, as you claim you are able to do. Her story is sad, tragic and messy as hell. I am sure she isn't lying about everything, but her truth is hard to follow and full of holes. The only EVIDENCE that has been shared publicly does not match her story. You are the ones who want this to play out in the court of public opinion, i am sure the world really doesn't want to hear about two Mormon adults describing their sexy time in the world's most awkward affair. Now is the time for your endgame, release the kraken, prove that you haven't just been blowing smoke. No more need for you and rosebud to post her narrative for the historians anymore, whatever that means. UNLEASH THE FURY!

Two thumbs up.

[Kishkumen]

John then used Kwaku's video as justification for getting you to doxx Rosebud. (Apologies if I missed this, but what was your justification for doxxing Rosebud? Do you think it's okay to doxx someone just because they've been doxxed before?

This is one of the more confusing aspects of your posts: your use of the term doxx, which seems to accord with Rosebud’s unusual use of the term doxx. No one here has uncovered or published information about Rosebud that she hasn’t voluntarily published herself. You can’t doxx someone using information someone has voluntarily revealed in the public sphere.

By the way, her Facebook page’s settings allow anyone to peruse her posts about John Dehlin and other aspects of her life. If she is serious about maintaining privacy, why does she have her account set to allow anyone to see that stuff? Are you saying that she can publish material in a public way and yet demand that no one talk about it? What sense does that make? If you use the word doxx in this situation, you’re making a fool of yourself and perhaps deliberately misrepresenting the situation.

Rosebud told everyone her name on the old board, linked her private information on the old board, and voluntarily continues to publish about her experience with John Dehlin under her own name, while bafflingly demanding that everyone call her Rosebud!?!?!?

That said, we are calling her Rosebud as she requested to be polite and maintain the integrity of our internal board rules. We can’t help it if she continues to make the connection to her real name pretty obvious by publishing her codename and Dehlin accusations in posts set to “public” on Facebook using an account that publicly bears her in real life name. No one here is forcing her to use Kwaku, Kate Kelly, and Matt Long to publicize her accusations against Dehlin.

I don’t think this is some kind of oversight on her part. I think it is actually very revealing of her MO. To publish voluntarily and repeatedly her name, connect it to her codename, and recite her accusations against Dehlin over and over again, and then accuse people of “doxxing” her is not to be victimized; it is a publicity strategy. It’s a twisted one for sure, but it is one nonetheless. If you continue to misuse the term doxx in this way, I have to conclude that you are a willing agent of Rosebud’s publicity strategy.

Seriously, though, is she writing a book on all of this? Please tell her I demand to be called Kishkumen in the published version. I have been pretty scrupulous about honoring her request only to use her codename Rosebud, so I am expecting reciprocity here.

[Moksha]

At a certain point, you chuck nuance and complexity out the window because you have decided that John Dehlin is a bad man who needs to be taken out.

Don't forget the genesis of this current attack was due to FAIR assigning their youth squad to take Dehlin out, so Dr. Dehlin is still on their target list. Their resources are plentiful and they have the Lying for the Lord permit.

[Dwight]

John then used Kwaku's video as justification for getting you to doxx Rosebud. (Apologies if I missed this, but what was your justification for doxxing Rosebud? Do you think it's okay to doxx someone just because they've been doxxed before?

In response to a question previously asked, John Dehlin did not ask me to use Rosebud’s real name. Quite the reverse.

John Dehlin has been very concerned that Rosebud may harm herself if the texts and emails were made public.

In fact, only an hour before show time it was John Dehlin who pointed out the texts had Rosebud’s phone number on each one from her and was concerned about this.

This was in the context of my making sure it was okay to link the full documents in the show notes.

I told him it was a good catch and he got busy redacting all of them, getting us the finished document less than half an hour before we went live.

I thought carefully about whether we should use Rosebud’s real name, finally concluding that inasmuch as she had doxxed herself publicly on her own Facebook page for months, there could be no harm in doing so.

It was important to use her real name because of the links to the documents containing her name, but I would have not done so has she not done so first.

Rosebud made the request to continue using Rosebud after the Mormonism Live episode the next day. We have all complied with it, RFM says he would have respected it, but at the time his reasoning as above which is valid to me. As Kishkumen points out her Facebook is very public.

After listening to the whole thing I am sympathetic for Rosebud. Life has handed her a bad set of cards, and she has played some bad hands. She built communities and conferences that I think helped people and were great. However moronic John Dehlin is, she built it off of his work with Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. No matter how righteous it would be, she didn't have more claim to what John built than John himself. She tried doing it outside of him, and she learned that success doesn't come over night. It was a bad relationship with two people who even if they weren't married to other people it probably would've been a train wreck. John Dehlin has come out of this relatively unscathed when compared to the ruins Rosebud's life is in comparison. Her marriage didn't survive it, her divorce became a fault one instead of no-fault, she tried a business venture that has left her financially ruined. How much of that is John's fault directly though? This is were I am being lost. She seems to have not been in a great place with her marriage and everything in life before John and she came out worse after her interactions with John, but is it entirely John's fault. Is the only justice that John's life be left in shambles? John isn't a great guy, I can understand the annoyance that not everyone has the insight that you, and others have in to him. I really looked at this to find more of a smoking gun, but I can't find one. Maybe John Dehlin shoved her into a pig sty, but she is the one wallowing in her own filth at this point. She would really be better served to get out and do the best to clean herself off and not give John Dehlin this time and attention that he doesn't deserve. Her friend would be better friends if they stopped helping her do this to herself, or in some cases getting a megaphone and saying "hey look at my friend here, John Dehlin did this to her, what an awful person John Dehlin is."

I worked for a narcissist, long story short he was not a moral or very ethical person. However despite all his problems clients would stay with him cause at the end of the day they came out way ahead using his services even accounting for the headaches and problems he created for them. Now he wronged me, I don't like him, I could maybe feel it valid and important to advertise this guy isn't what he says he is cause there probably were, and there are clients that were worse off cause of him. I was worse off cause I left that job burned out and it took a while to get back on my feet. I didn't have to care anymore though. His successes were not my losses. Instead of focusing on him I just moved on with my life. I let myself heal.

Matt I feel does a lot of good in the world from what I can tell. Though I feel that maybe he has gotten a bit drunk on the power, the righteousness he feels in doing the job that he does. I can only imagine in Rosebud he sees a victim and coupled with his dislike of the exmo world and John Dehlin in particular he has gone out on a branch that can't really support this case. I wish him the best, but it feels like he is not aware of how while he liked to point at the dumb exmos that got taken in by McKenna Dennison to realize that while there is a kernel or something here with Rosebud he's maybe gotten taken in by her with his desire to protect victims and cause he too would love to see John Dehlin taken down a peg.