Exploring the Secret History of the Church

[_Franktalk]

Watcher,

I am strong in the spirit so I am guided by the Holy Ghost. So don't worry about me. I do seek knowledge where ever I can get it. If you stick around I am sure we can have some interesting chats.

[_Watcher]

Awesome

I was being a little facetious about the Holy Ghost being expired.. I hope that was understood.

..sometimes my dry sense of humor does not translate well in writing.

[_Tobin]

Hi Watcher,

I've finally had some time to read through the thread and agree with the premise that to be endowed (or the endowment) is an event. You are called (or should be called) of God to do such a thing. In the sciptures, Jesus and the apostles received the endowment (or were endowed) on the mount of transfiguration. Right now, I strongly disagree with the Mormon acts of endowment and they treat it like an amusement ride, which disgusts me. All they require is a dead persons name to get on the ride and off they go. I'm sure the Lord isn't pleased with such things and is not what the temple is for.

[_Franktalk]

Awesome

I was being a little facetious about the Holy Ghost being expired.. I hope that was understood.

..sometimes my dry sense of humor does not translate well in writing.

Not to worry. You actually write very well. The subject matter you are trying to get across is difficult. The impossible task is to write something spiritual with little supporting scriptures. Oh there may be many scriptures but some require spiritual discernment. There is no going around that one. People think you have gone crazy.

[_moksha]

Watcher, can you help me out with this idea?

"When dealing with followers who believe every word spoken by their leaders, it is a moral imperative for those leaders to speak nothing but the truth."

This idea I had makes sense to me, but does it seem true from your perspective?

[_Watcher]

That is an interesting question moksha.

I can see how that question would apply to an apostate people that have rejected the higher law and are living a lessor law, like the Children of Israel that Moses labored with, or even those that might be in apostasy in these latter days.

I would have to say, based on my own personal study of biblical Christianity and the restored gospel, that it is NOT necessarily a moral imperative for those leaders to speak nothing but the truth in the context of the fulness of the gospel.

The Lord has made it clear that those who put their trust in the arm of flesh are cursed.

Period. (2nd Nephi 4:34, 28:31 Jer 17:3-7)

Even if the leader is a true prophet and even if he is telling the truth, anyone that blindly believes what is being said because of their trust in that human, rather than by getting the witness of personal revelation that their words are from God, is categorically cursed because of their leader-worship and/or prophet-worship.

The God of Israel is a jealous God.

He never wants anyone living under the covenant of the fulness of the gospel to put their trust in man, only God.

If a person or people choose to put a curse upon themselves by going contrary to the counsel of God and putting their trust in human priesthood authority, then why should they feel like their fallible leaders have a moral imperative to speak nothing but the truth?

The truth is, that mortal men, be they true prophets or false prophets or just presidents of the church, do not have the ability to infallibly speak the truth at all times. God has never granted that type of infallibility to human beings.

They can only speak the truth when endowed with the truth from God.

The test is not composed of blindly following a human priesthood leader.

The test is to discern, by the Holy Ghost, each and every doctrine and commandment that is uttered by the leader.

If the spirit witnesses they are speaking on behalf of God, then the follower of Christ is bound to obey.

If the spirit witnesses the leader is not speaking on behalf of God, the follower of Christ will be damned for obeying.

In the 13th chapter of Deut. the Lord explains that he sometimes uses true prophets to try and lead people astray so that the Lord can "prove" whether the person loves God and will follow his previously established laws of worship, or whether the person has erroneously put their trust in a prophet.

Even if the prophet has a prophetic gift and miraculously gives a sign or wonder that comes to pass as prophesied, they are not to be obeyed if they are contradicting a previously revealed law or commandment.

"IF there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

One of the most poignant Bible stories for illustrating the need for personal revelation and the fact that God DOES allow prophets to lead people astray in order to test them, is found in 1 Kings 13. The story is well worth reading.

The inspired version of the Bible condenses this principle of not putting one’s faith in the teachings of another man;

“And again, if thy foot offend thee, cut it off; for he that is thy standard, by whom thou walkest, if he become a transgressor, he shall be cut off. It is better for thee, to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell; into the fire that never shall be quenched. Therefore, let every man stand or fall, by himself, and not for another; or not trusting another.” JST Mark 9:40-48.

According to that passage, it is the follower that is responsible for there own salvation, not their leader.

Another great testimony of this teaching (which one must get a personal witness of) was given to the relief society by Joseph Smith. Here is an excerpt of what Joseph taught-

"President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel--said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church--that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls--applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall--that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy."

One of the more modern leaders of the church to substantiate this doctrine was President Joseph Fielding Smith;

Here is the true doctrine as articulated by President Joseph Fielding Smith

“ It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside.

My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them.

Let us have this matter clear.

We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.”

(Joseph Fielding Smith Doctrines of Salvation, 3:203).”

Obviously, every passage that I have quoted above needs to be discerned by the spirit as to whether these teachings are true and from God.

I am well aware of modern leaders who have contradicted the truths stated above. People are welcome and encouraged to put conflicting teachings on this post for everyone to review but I am not interested in debating this issue with anyone. It is up to each person to discern which doctrine is true.

These passages of scripture and related interpretations represent my own opinions from what I have tried to discern i my personal spiritual journey. The fact that I believe them should be irrelevant to people on this board because I am just a religious heretic. However, perhaps they will be useful for those that are studying all of the sides of this issue. Everyone should seek their own personal revelation on this.


Sorry to be so repetitive and long winded.

Watcher

[_Franktalk]

I am well aware of modern leaders who have contradicted the truths stated above. People are welcome and encouraged to put conflicting teachings on this post for everyone to review but I am not interested in debating this issue with anyone. It is up to each person to discern which doctrine is true.

Watcher

I have found so few that can discern by the Spirit. But the ones I have found say the same thing. The scriptures are opening up and more truth is being revealed. For those who follow the false idol of historical interpretation instead of the Holy Spirit it will be an interesting time for them. More and more people will arrive at the conclusion that the orthodox view is simply wrong. The safe worldly view will be challenged more and more and the world will start to separate out the sheep from the goats. I have found that this outpouring of Spirit is allowing some of the Spirit to find each other.

To debate with the world on Spiritual matters is a waste of time. Truth is the truth. But still the orthodox have the vast numbers of followers behind them. I say this not in support of the orthodox position but to point out a fact. Sadly many are seeing this and interpreting the debate as the whole of religion is on fire with conflict. Many are losing their faith. Their roots were never planted in good soil in the first place. So those who read scripture and actually get the message are living and seeing the message all around them. This is how it should be and the reaction of the world just edifies many to be strong in faith.

What I find very interesting is that no one church shows a dramatic shift of the Spirit. At least in my view. I would be interested in hearing your views on just how many actually discern.

[_Watcher]

"I have found so few that can discern by the Spirit"

I believe ancient and modern scripture and the history of the church backs you up on your observation.

After the restored church fell under condemnation by taking the Book of Mormon lightly and failing to consecrate and live the law of the gospel as revealed in section 42, the Lord began to withdraw his spirit from all of the inhabitants of the earth.

ALL OF THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH.

Shortly after Joseph and Oliver had their veil experience, the Kirtland Temple was defiled, the Kirtland apostasy took place, the saints were forced to flee from Kirtland and many of the founding fathers of the restoration movement left the church even though they continued in their testimonies of the Book of Mormon.

During the first seven years of the restored church, Joseph had received about 90% of the revelations that are canonized. Following that, the heavens began closing. During the remaining seven years only a few revelations were given.

The few revelations that came after the Kirtland period had ominous pronouncements in them.

One example is section 112 which informs us that:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face."

"ALL FLESH" is pretty all encompassing.

It includes all of the members and leaders of the restored church.

Another one of the few revelations received after the Kirtland Era was section 124 which informed the saints that the fulness of the priesthood had been lost (28) and that the saints would be rejected as a church with their dead if they failed to complete the temple within the "sufficient time" allotted (31-32) and that they would not be moved out of Nauvoo if they hearkened unto the voice of the Lord but would have to flee if they were disobedient (45-46).

Relating to the topic of the Kirtland Temple which I am getting ready to wrap up, the Lord observes that "instead of blessings, ye, by your own works, bring cursings" (48)

That is one of the great secrets about section 110. It not only has to do with a great blessing, it has to do with a cursing that is put upon the church. That may be one of the reasons that the Lord commanded Joseph and Oliver to not publicly reveal what had taken place.

I will discuss that when I finalize the first topic having to do with section 110.

Clearly, the gifts of the spirit began leaving the church after the Kirtland era and the spirit was largely withdrawn from the earth at that time.

So, yes, I would have to agree with your observation that very little spiritual discernment is currently taking place, although I believe that the "blindness" that God has put upon Israel is beginning to be removed in preparation for what is about to take place in the very near future. (Rom 11:25)

The good news is that the designated four generations have now expired and the light of the fulness of the Gospel is about to break forth again (45:28) and the dispensation of the fulness of times is about to be ushered in and the Marvelous Work is about to begin.

Praise God

[_Tobin]

The good news is that the designated four generations have now expired and the light of the fulness of the Gospel is about to break forth again (45:28) and the dispensation of the fulness of times is about to be ushered in and the Marvelous Work is about to begin.

I don't believe that will happen till the Lord returns (or is about to). When I say is about to return, I mean when the 10 tribes return to this planet and other signs of his arrival are readily apparent. It will then become obvious to all what is about to transpire. Otherwise I agree with you on most of the rest of your post. The gifts of the spirit are missing mostly from the Church (and from the Earth). There is no one that possesses the "real" priesthood of God. Otherwise, we would see miracles performed by the leaders of the Church and that is not happening for the most part. I find the claims that the priesthood can be obtained by passing it from one man to another as hollow. The "real" priesthood of God comes from God alone and no man can give it to you. And in general, I agree that most in the Church are in apostasy (including the leadership of the Church). They are not what they pretend to be.

[_Albion]

Obviously, those who have read my posts know where I stand on the validity of Joseph Smith in any way being an instrument of God. To me he fits one of two categories...he was either a liar and conman who deliberately made the whole thing up, or he was inspired by the spirit and father of all lies who is the god of this world. In either case, I think the ultimate source is the same. So a question. If Smith's inspiration was the great deceiver, is it not logical that those who seek a "spiritual" confirmation of his work and ideas would have it confirmed by the same spirit?