Albion wrote:Bazooka, you make a valid point but I fear you are wasting your time trying to press it with Tobin and Franktalk. They know nothing of my spiritual journey, how I arrived where I am, but make wild assumptions that only they have found the formula to understanding. My views are based on prayerful study of God's word as it is contained in his word, the Bible...God's word which at times they have referred to "baloney" or mere words. They are both out in left field when it comes to Biblical theology, drawing from any source that appears to support their own particular belief system and seemingly denying the apparent core beliefs of Christianity. They are even both clearly misfits within their own claimed belief system of Mormonism and yet brand me as "relying on one's feelings and impressions". That really is rich coming from those mired in a belief system that calls upon its adherents to trust their feelings as verification of truth. I much prefer the facts of God's word.
It is clear that you love the Bible and scriptures. But Christ is not a book. The words speak of Him but they are not Him. He is alive and His Spirit can indeed indwell in you. You just need to want it bad enough. Paul described in detail how to obtain the Spirit of Christ in Romans 1 - 9. I am not sure I posted it here on this site. Maybe I should. Now that Watcher and Fusion are here it may be appropriate.
Albion wrote:Bazooka, you make a valid point but I fear you are wasting your time trying to press it with Tobin and Franktalk. They know nothing of my spiritual journey, how I arrived where I am, but make wild assumptions that only they have found the formula to understanding. My views are based on prayerful study of God's word as it is contained in his word, the Bible...God's word which at times they have referred to "baloney" or mere words. They are both out in left field when it comes to Biblical theology, drawing from any source that appears to support their own particular belief system and seemingly denying the apparent core beliefs of Christianity. They are even both clearly misfits within their own claimed belief system of Mormonism and yet brand me as "relying on one's feelings and impressions". That really is rich coming from those mired in a belief system that calls upon its adherents to trust their feelings as verification of truth. I much prefer the facts of God's word.
Albion,
I don't think I am wasting my time with Franktalk, although he and I have very little in common with regards to how we approach the subject of religion/belief/faith etc. Frank views life through a lens of spirituality whereas as I am biased towards logic and pragmatism. I don't see that as an issue providing the discourse is respectful (something I am prone not to be, although I'm trying) of the validity of each others views and bias.
I do think it is subconscious arrogance (not meant nastily) in humans that we intrinsically believe we are right and people who don't share our views, are wrong. It takes big people to allow for flaws in their own arguments and beliefs. I think Frank is capable of that.
I'm feeling like we are derailing Watchers thread into the realms of philosophy so I may start a new thread and ask that we "take this outside"
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
I'm feeling like we are derailing Watchers thread into the realms of philosophy so I may start a new thread and ask that we "take this outside"
It does not bother me at all.
Don't take your discussion elsewhere unless it benefits your discussion.
Since I don't have the time or inclination to move my series along any faster than a post every few days to a week, it works well for people to discourse with each other on any issue they desire.
Apparently someone is finding the discussion interesting with nearly 1,000 views in a relatively short period of time.
It does not bother me at all.
In fact, I have enjoyed a few of the remarks that people have made on other subjects. It gets me pondering about things that I have not thought of before.
Some in a previous comment on this thread, as I recall, was talking about having a predetermined "bias" regarding how one investigates and evaluates religious topics and beliefs.
I have been pondering this lately because I believe most of us usually enter into the study of virtually all topics with a predetermined bias.
Sometimes we don't even know what our bias is because it is quietly resting below the surface.
This has got me thinking about what the Book of Mormon says about a predetermined bias..
We are conditioned by society to believe that it is a good trait to approach learning and digesting new information with an "open mind" and without a bias, however, the amazing chapter on faith in the Book of Mormon, in my opinion, actually suggests that the process of becoming a believer, which eventually leads to testimony, sometimes, if not all the time, needs to actually begin with a predetermined bias.
"But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can no more than desire to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words." (Alma 32:19)
Is not a "desire to believe" a predetermined bias?
To me, the passages is saying,
"But behold, if ye will awake and arouse your faculties, even to an experiment upon my words, and exercise a particle of faith, yea, even if ye can simply evaluate this information with a predetermined bias of desiring to believe, let this desire work in you, even until ye believe in a manner that ye can give place for a portion of my words."
I suspect the skeptics who have rejected God and the gospel would be freaked out at that and suggest that, that is why believers are deceived, simply because they are being led by a desire to believe rather than logic and deductive reasoning and critical thinking.
I believe that logic, deductive reasoning and critical thinking is virtually always conducted with the underlying motivation of either wanting to believe or not wanting to believe.
I suppose one could argue that the difference between the children of light that believe and the children of darkness that disbelieve, has to do with the initial desire to believe or disbelieve.
Children of light that enter into the mystical spiritual dimension of belief do so because they desire to believe.
Those that remain skeptical and critical, desire to view the evidence that way and hence, remain in the dark.
One of the things I have noticed with the controversial historical events is that they provide confirmation of the truth for those who have the predetermined "desire to believe" yet they provide confirmation that Joseph was a fraud for those that don't desire to believe.
The sad thing is that those who begin with the desire to believe, eventually enter into the light of an ineffable spiritual experience which cannot be adequately explained or proven to those that have not experienced it.
One cannot download the light and intelligence they have received into another person.
Hence, the intellectual attempts of each side of the argument fruitlessly keep trying to persuade the other side because one can only understand the spiritual dimension by personal experience.
One must personally experience the seed of belief begin to swell, and sprout, and begin to grow, and only then will one begin to realize that the seed is good; "for behold it swelleth, and sprouteth, and beginneth to grow." etc., etc., etc.
Good post. It follows what is written in Romans. First we see God in everything around us. Then we seek to know Him. Then we learn the commandments which some write on their hearts. Once you become a little like Christ then Christ enters you to help finish the work just like Father entered Jesus so He could finish the work. It is an amazing thing to know. And almost impossible to do.
I am thinking about posting my commentary on Romans 1 - 9. But I just finished posting on Tweb where it was a hard struggle. The thread just hit 41,000 views. It is hard sometimes to read the real negative stuff that comes out of people. I come here for a vacation from that and I have other places to go when my spirit really needs to rest.
A couple of thoughts. Firstly, if Watcher in any way is directing his post to me he might just as well quote Alice in Wonderland as the Book of Mormon. Both are a fantasy. Secondly, Franktalk, I really would like you to present your personal interpretation of Romans, likely the most theological book in God's word. I think we discussed this in the past but if what you have just posted is your summation I think a revisit is definitely in order.
Bazooka, I am willing to accept that I see God's word through a particular lens....but it is the lens of almost two thousand years of Christianity with its attendant scholarship, prayer, inspiration and life test...a faith to which countless thousands have testified and died for to carry out Christ's Great Commission. And I am supposed to compromise my faith on the self promoting, devilish beliefs of a man like Joseph Smith. I honestly appreciate your thoughts but I don't think so. I am perfectly willing to place my spiritual well being and salvation in the hands of only one person....and his name isn't Smith.
Albion wrote:Bazooka, I am willing to accept that I see God's word through a particular lens....but it is the lens of almost two thousand years of Christianity with its attendant scholarship, prayer, inspiration and life test...a faith to which countless thousands have testified and died for to carry out Christ's Great Commission. And I am supposed to compromise my faith on the self promoting, devilish beliefs of a man like Joseph Smith. I honestly appreciate your thoughts but I don't think so. I am perfectly willing to place my spiritual well being and salvation in the hands of only one person....and his name isn't Smith.
Albion, I think you are misreading me. My view is that Smith made it all up and following 'Prophets' merely embellished. I am in no way promoting Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon (or the Bible for that matter).
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
I am sorry if I gave the impression I was assuming a position for you. My remarks were directed at the idea I took to be suggested that I should in some way compromise on my beliefs to accommodate anything from Mormonism. Sometimes message boards such as this can be a poor medium for the expression of real thoughts and ideas.
Albion wrote:I am sorry if I gave the impression I was assuming a position for you. My remarks were directed at the idea I took to be suggested that I should in some way compromise on my beliefs to accommodate anything from Mormonism. Sometimes message boards such as this can be a poor medium for the expression of real thoughts and ideas.
I think the only thing(s) that should compromise a persons belief is new evidences, wether that be experiences; scientific developments; new personal enlightenment from study, research or discussion and debate etc. I think, after all, that is how our views, opinions, morals and beliefs take shape in the first place. As a three year old I don't recall holding the views, opinions, morals and beliefs I have now. If I had been a three year old in China and brought up within that culture, my views, opinions, morals and beliefs would probably not be the same ones I hold now.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
IU have no problem with what you say in essence....but perhaps compromise is the wrong word in this discussion. My Concise OED (the one true dictionary lol) includes the definition "expedient acceptance of standards that are lower than is desirable" I think ideas evolving as you suggest is something quite different.
As a side note a terrific and fascinating read on the creation of the OED is "The Professor and the Madman".
In no way do I mean to sound rude, so please don't take what I am about to say. I am just sincerely very confused why, if you both believe that the Book of Mormon is fantasy, would you spend time and effort in cognitive thought at a place called 'Mormon discussions'? To put this in the light I am trying to express, I am a former catholic. At 16, after years of doubts from the time I was as litle as could be, I just knew without any more convincing necessary, and without support or prodding from anyone whatsoever by family or friends, catholic or non-catholic, that there was no way in this universe the catholic church was the Lord Jesus Christ's church. I knew this in mind and heart, by feelings as well as by study of it's history, once I got old enough to investigate these extremely negative feelings. Yet, I have never once been to any catholic or ex-catholic websites. It has simply never occurred to me to tell them they are wrong, or more importantly, to confirm each day that my decision all those years ago was the right one. When I meet catholics I never go down that path because it makes no sense for me to walk in their pathway at all. I looked far out of the catholic 'box', and having finally found what my Spirit was yearning for from the time I was born, I had no interest in any of it anymore, and NEITHER did I have the inkling to be in that environment. It's not unlike a reformed alcoholic hanging around at bars with his old buddies who like nothing better than the bottle- it simply makes zero sense to me. The ex-alcoholic is usually amazed at the new lease on life, lives for good food, exercise, the great outdoors and the uplifting company of those who have no link to his past drunken life. Thus, for me, and once again I make a point of stating that this is not meant to be rude or have any sense of arrogance, but why on earth are those of you who are convinced it's all a lie and a scam, and even Satan's work, and Joseph Smith being satan's follower...what keeps you coming to places like this??
Please enlighten me. I am here because of one thing and one thing only- I LOVE the Restored Gospel and the absolutely riveting history that is hidden thereof. I LOVE the Book of Morn immensely...it saved my life, literally. I LOVE Jesus immensely, and God the Father just as much. And I am fascinated with that man who truly has good and evil spoken of him like absolutely no other human on the planet- Joseph Smith. I have had some amazing spiritual experiences that are very real (no, I have NOT seen the Lord, nor an angel- just want to be clear about this now), and I have no doubt, though I did many years ago when I began this journey, that the Book of Mormon and it's mission, is 100% true.
