GOP: Okay to establish State Religion

[_MeDotOrg]

From the tar heel State:

Raleigh, N.C. — A bill filed by Republican lawmakers would allow North Carolina to declare an official religion, in violation of the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Bill of Rights, and seeks to nullify any federal ruling against Christian prayer by public bodies statewide.

The bill grew out of a federal lawsuit filed last month by the American Civil Liberties Union against the Rowan County Board of Commissioners. In the lawsuit, the ACLU says the board has opened 97 percent of its meetings since 2007 with explicitly Christian prayers.

Overtly Christian prayers at government meetings are not rare in North Carolina. Since the Republican takeover in 2011, the state Senate chaplain has offered an explicitly Christian invocation virtually every day of session, despite the fact that some senators are not Christian.

In a 2011 ruling on a similar lawsuit against the Forsyth County Board of Commissioners, the Fourth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals did not ban prayer at government meetings outright but said prayers favoring one religion over another are unconstitutional.

"To plant sectarian prayers at the heart of local government is a prescription for religious discord," the court said. "Where prayer in public fora is concerned, the deep beliefs of the speaker afford only more reason to respect the profound convictions of the listener. Free religious exercise posits broad religious tolerance."

House Bill 494, filed by Republican Rowan County Reps. Harry Warren and Carl Ford, would refuse to acknowledge the force of any judicial ruling on prayer in North Carolina – or indeed on any Constitutional topic:

"The Constitution of the United States does not grant the federal government and does not grant the federal courts the power to determine what is or is not constitutional; therefore, by virtue of the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, the power to determine constitutionality and the proper interpretation and proper application of the Constitution is reserved to the states and to the people," the bill states. "Each state in the union is sovereign and may independently determine how that state may make laws respecting an establishment of religion."

The Tenth Amendment argument, also known as "nullification," has been tried unsuccessfully by states for more than a century to defy everything from the Emancipation Proclamation of the Civil War to President Obama's health care reforms to gun control.

[_beastie]

You beat me to it!

Their constitution also forbids nonbelievers to serve in public offices.

Sec. 8. Disqualifications for office.
The following persons shall be disqualified for office:
First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.
Second, with respect to any office that is filled by election by the people, any person who is not qualified to vote in an election for that office.
Third, any person who has been adjudged guilty of treason or any other felony against this State or the United States, or any person who has been adjudged guilty of a felony in another state that also would be a felony if it had been committed in this State, or any person who has been adjudged guilty of corruption or malpractice in any office, or any person who has been removed by impeachment from any office, and who has not been restored to the rights of citizenship in the manner prescribed by law.

http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/legislation ... ution.html

[_Droopy]

From the tar heel State:

Raleigh, N.C. — A bill filed by Republican lawmakers would allow North Carolina to declare an official religion, in violation of the Establishment Clause of the U.S. Bill of Rights, and seeks to nullify any federal ruling against Christian prayer by public bodies statewide.

The bill grew out of a federal lawsuit filed last month by the American Civil Liberties Union against the Rowan County Board of Commissioners. In the lawsuit, the ACLU says the board has opened 97 percent of its meetings since 2007 with explicitly Christian prayers.

Overtly Christian prayers at government meetings are not rare in North Carolina. Since the Republican takeover in 2011, the state Senate chaplain has offered an explicitly Christian invocation virtually every day of session, despite the fact that some senators are not Christian.

In a 2011 ruling on a similar lawsuit against the Forsyth County Board of Commissioners, the Fourth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals did not ban prayer at government meetings outright but said prayers favoring one religion over another are unconstitutional.

"To plant sectarian prayers at the heart of local government is a prescription for religious discord," the court said. "Where prayer in public fora is concerned, the deep beliefs of the speaker afford only more reason to respect the profound convictions of the listener. Free religious exercise posits broad religious tolerance."

House Bill 494, filed by Republican Rowan County Reps. Harry Warren and Carl Ford, would refuse to acknowledge the force of any judicial ruling on prayer in North Carolina – or indeed on any Constitutional topic:

"The Constitution of the United States does not grant the federal government and does not grant the federal courts the power to determine what is or is not constitutional; therefore, by virtue of the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, the power to determine constitutionality and the proper interpretation and proper application of the Constitution is reserved to the states and to the people," the bill states. "Each state in the union is sovereign and may independently determine how that state may make laws respecting an establishment of religion."

The Tenth Amendment argument, also known as "nullification," has been tried unsuccessfully by states for more than a century to defy everything from the Emancipation Proclamation of the Civil War to President Obama's health care reforms to gun control.

To establish an official state religion in the constitutional sense, North Carolina would have to designate a specific denomination (Baptist, Assembly of God, Methodist etc.) as the official approved religion of the state of NC. Saying broadly Christian non-denominational prayers around a flag pole, or at the beginning of a football game has nothing to do with the establishment clause as understood by the Founders and has no connection to its original intent.

Yet again we see that the secular humanist Left will not be content until it has barred all doors and closed all avenues to open, public freedom of religious speech and expression for a specific, targeted class of Americans and extirpated religion from the public square entirely.

Next, of course, as the power of the Left continues to grow and fester, will be the attempt to extirpate religion from private life as well, for which sterner measures will be required.

Its all coming in our lifetimes, folks, so prepare ye for that which is to come...

[_Darth J]

I'm glad Droopy is taking such a principled stance on this issue. I'm sure he'll agree that it's perfectly fine for the North Carolina legislature to further determine that the LDS Church is not part of Christianity, and therefore Latter-day Saints are precluded from offering prayers at public meetings. We know that is likely to result, since the underlying controversy that sparked all this involved a judge who specifically said that the Book of Mormon is not a Christian scripture.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0720/p02s02-usju.html

But to Guilford County Superior Judge W. Douglas Albright, a 1777 North Carolina law clearly says oaths are made upon the "Holy Scriptures" - which scholars agree is a clear reference to the Bible. The Administrative Office of the Courts has so far declined a request by Muslim groups to make a rule change that would force judges to allow other religious oaths.

Since Judge Albright's decision, there's been a growing number of requests by other religious groups to have their holy texts allowable under law.

"It's gotten way out there: They've got everything from the Book of Mormon to the Book of Wicca on the list," says Judge Albright. "Our position is that the statute governs not only the type of oath, but the manner and administration of the oath, and that it's now a legislative matter to straighten out."

The effect of this proposed statute would make it perfectly legal for the great state of North Carolina to ban Mormonism altogether. I hope the secular leftists who would invent some supposed right for Latter-day Saints to practice their religion in a given state---contrary to the intent of the Founding Fathers---are soundly defeated by the people's duly elected representatives. The appeal to popular sovereignty has worked out so well for Mormon's free exercise of religion in the past, after all. Just ask Stephen A. Douglas.

[_Darth J]

Saying broadly Christian non-denominational prayers around a flag pole, or at the beginning of a football game has nothing to do with the establishment clause as understood by the Founders and has no connection to its original intent.

Yes, and that's exactly what the U.S. Supreme Court said when a Mormon high school student complained that such prayers discriminated against her beliefs by favoring one religion over another.

Oh, maybe not.

When will all these leftist, secular Mormons stop using the courts to have unelected, unaccountable judges impose these fraudulent "rights" on society that were never intended by the Founding Fathers?

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I asked a Christian today if they could ever accept a Mormon as a Christian at any point.

He said, "No."

- Doc

[_Darth J]

To establish an official state religion in the constitutional sense, North Carolina would have to designate a specific denomination (Baptist, Assembly of God, Methodist etc.) as the official approved religion of the state of NC.

So if the legislature of, say, Michigan, required students in its public schools to pray to Allah every day while facing toward Mecca, this would not establish a state religion, since it does not endorse any particular sect of Islam.

Just wondering, Droopy, but what is the legal authority you are relying upon for your assertion that only supporting a specific sect of a religious ideology constitutes the state establishment of religion within the meaning of the First Amendment?

[_Darth J]

Droopy, just a couple of follow-up questions to your compelling analysis of constitutional law.

1. Was the 14th Amendment part of the Bill of Rights in 1791?

2. Is the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States part of the Constitution of the United States?

3. Does Article VI, Clause 2 of the Constitution to the United States authorize state court judges to disregard the Constitution of the United States?

4. What provision of this North Carolina bill would prevent the State of North Carolina from banning the LDS Church and its members from practicing their religion within the borders of the State?

[_subgenius]

I asked a Christian today if they could ever accept a Mormon as a Christian at any point.

He said, "No."

- Doc

I asked a stranger today if he thought your post was logical or definitive.

He said, "No."

[_Darth J]

I asked a Christian today if they could ever accept a Mormon as a Christian at any point.

He said, "No."

- Doc

I asked a stranger today if he thought your post was logical or definitive.

He said, "No."

Hi, Subgenius!

Do you agree with the judge who started this whole controversy in North Carolina that the Book of Mormon is not part of the Christian scriptures, and is comparable to a Wiccan text? Do you feel that the 10th Amendment authorizes state court judges to rule on whether or not a given religion falls under the rubric of "Christianity"?