Ex-Mo's: Ever explore different options?

[_nc47]

Nelson,
Do you believe God wanted Joseph Smith to marry other mens wives? Or that Joseph got the instruction on polygamy all wrong?

For the rationale behind polygamy, and how it fits into the grander scheme of revelations to Joseph Smith, read Samuel Brown's In Heaven as it is on Earth: Joseph Smith and the Early Mormon Conquest of Death (New York: Oxford University Press, 2012).

Do you believe Adam was literally the First mortal man on this planet and before him nothing died?

No, and I know you're going to quote Doctrines of Salvation like it's official doctrine when it's not.

Do you believe the book of Abraham is a literal translation from the papyrus or not?

I've already stated my position ad nauseum, not gonna do it again.

Do you believe that God and Jesus both appeared to Joseph Smith despite the fact that Joseph didn't remember God appearing and speaking directly to him until decades later?

[/quote]
Yes, he was constantly told not to reveal things until later, like Peter with the Transfiguration.

[_ludwigm]

What makes you think Nietzsche was mentally ill? I've read some of his philosophy, but I don't know anything about his personal life.

One can tell that Kierkegaard had anxiety and depression just from reading him. I couldn't deduce anything about Nietzsche.

wikipedia...

...
In 1889, at the age of forty-four, he suffered a collapse and a complete loss of his mental faculties. The breakdown had been ascribed to atypical general paresis attributed to tertiary syphilis, but this diagnosis has since come into question.
...
In 1879, after a significant decline in health, Nietzsche had to resign his position at Basel. (Since his childhood, various disruptive illnesses had plagued him, including moments of shortsightedness that left him nearly blind, migraine headaches, and violent indigestion.
...
By 1882, Nietzsche was taking huge doses of opium, but was still having trouble sleeping. In 1883, while staying in Nice, he was writing out his own prescriptions for the sedative chloral hydrate, signing them 'Dr Nietzsche'.
...
On January 3, 1889, Nietzsche suffered a mental collapse. Two policemen approached him after he caused a public disturbance in the streets of Turin. What happened remains unknown, but an often-repeated tale from shortly after his death states that Nietzsche witnessed the flogging of a horse at the other end of the Piazza Carlo Alberto, ran to the horse, threw his arms up around its neck to protect it, and then collapsed to the ground.
...
Nietzsche's mental illness was originally diagnosed as tertiary syphilis, in accordance with a prevailing medical paradigm of the time. Although most commentators regard his breakdown as unrelated to his philosophy, Georges Bataille drops dark hints ("'man incarnate' must also go mad") and René Girard's postmortem psychoanalysis posits a worshipful rivalry with Richard Wagner. The diagnosis of syphilis was challenged, and manic-depressive illness with periodic psychosis, followed by vascular dementia was put forward by Cybulska, prior Schain's. Leonard Sax, after a review of the medical evidence, concluded that the slow growth of a right-sided retro-orbital meningioma, not syphilis, is the most plausible explanation of Nietzsche’s dementia. Orth and Trimble postulate frontotemporal dementia, while other researchers proposed a syndrome called CADASIL.

[_madeleine]

Let me preface this by saying that I am a TBM and I don't intend on ever leaving the Church. I acknowledge that most who leave don't find another faith. We're used to born-agains in our face with their ignorance. Let's be honest: Evangelical Christianity is not very appealing to a group of people with the educational profile of Mormons.

But let's also recognize that that atheism offers nothing but despair. There are alternatives available. Philosopher Richard Sherlock, for example, converted to Catholicism because he said that faith needs to be rational and Mormonism is based too much on feelings. What I find especially appealing is Eastern Orthodoxy. They bear an uncanny resemblance to what Mormons are used to: temples, priesthood, deification, no guilt from original sin, continuing revelation, degrees of glory, and much more, all within a Trinitarian framework.

I did the Mormon to exmo to atheist to Roman Catholic route. While yes, a lot of former LDS understandably go atheist or agnostic, I know many people who converted to RC directly from Mormonism.

As for your list of executive order beliefs/practices...I'm not getting the idea that you understand them. :)

[_Themis]

Sometimes it's necessary to readjust the way we look at the nature of revelation, the literalness of scripture, etc. But nothing really becomes a problem.

It's common for some when confronted with facts they cannot accept, to readjust in order to try and get around those facts.

[Guest]

Let me preface this by saying that I am a TBM and I don't intend on ever leaving the Church. I acknowledge that most who leave don't find another faith. We're used to born-agains in our face with their ignorance. Let's be honest: Evangelical Christianity is not very appealing to a group of people with the educational profile of Mormons.

But let's also recognize that that atheism offers nothing but despair. There are alternatives available. Philosopher Richard Sherlock, for example, converted to Catholicism because he said that faith needs to be rational and Mormonism is based too much on feelings. What I find especially appealing is Eastern Orthodoxy. They bear an uncanny resemblance to what Mormons are used to: temples, priesthood, deification, no guilt from original sin, continuing revelation, degrees of glory, and much more, all within a Trinitarian framework.

I did the Mormon to exmo to atheist to Roman Catholic route. While yes, a lot of former LDS understandably go atheist or agnostic, I know many people who converted to RC directly from Mormonism.

As for your list of executive order beliefs/practices...I'm not getting the idea that you understand them. :)

Good for you Madeleine, I'm happy for you. I've extensively spoken to a few Mormons who converted to executive order, including one who has been an Orthodox priest. They recognize there are uncanny convergences. The influence of Greek philosophy is more subdued on executive order than on Catholicism and Protestantism. They say that Augustine couldn't read Greek really well and #%^ things up, and Mormons agree.

This is the list the former priest gave me:

1. Centrality of Priesthood and Temple and Authority
2. Deification
3. Jesus = YHWH
4. Original Guilt not inborn, but effects of Adam's sin (death, corruption, disease) continue
5. Ongoing revelation and miracles
6. Postbiblical documents that carry equal authority to the Bible
7. Mysteries (sacraments/ordinances) have real effect, not just symbols
8. Marriage essential to salvation (Orthodox consider monasticism a kind of marriage. The principle here is that no one is saved outside of obedience to community, the smallest unit of which is the family.)
9. Eternal progression and degrees of glory
10. Baptism by full immersion

Edit: They also read Gen. 1:26-27 "likeness" to mean physical likeness, although to executive order that refers to the Son, not the Father.

Edit: No filioque

[_nc47]

What makes you think Nietzsche was mentally ill? I've read some of his philosophy, but I don't know anything about his personal life.

One can tell that Kierkegaard had anxiety and depression just from reading him. I couldn't deduce anything about Nietzsche.

wikipedia...

...
In 1889, at the age of forty-four, he suffered a collapse and a complete loss of his mental faculties. The breakdown had been ascribed to atypical general paresis attributed to tertiary syphilis, but this diagnosis has since come into question.
...
In 1879, after a significant decline in health, Nietzsche had to resign his position at Basel. (Since his childhood, various disruptive illnesses had plagued him, including moments of shortsightedness that left him nearly blind, migraine headaches, and violent indigestion.
...
By 1882, Nietzsche was taking huge doses of opium, but was still having trouble sleeping. In 1883, while staying in Nice, he was writing out his own prescriptions for the sedative chloral hydrate, signing them 'Dr Nietzsche'.
...
On January 3, 1889, Nietzsche suffered a mental collapse. Two policemen approached him after he caused a public disturbance in the streets of Turin. What happened remains unknown, but an often-repeated tale from shortly after his death states that Nietzsche witnessed the flogging of a horse at the other end of the Piazza Carlo Alberto, ran to the horse, threw his arms up around its neck to protect it, and then collapsed to the ground.
...
Nietzsche's mental illness was originally diagnosed as tertiary syphilis, in accordance with a prevailing medical paradigm of the time. Although most commentators regard his breakdown as unrelated to his philosophy, Georges Bataille drops dark hints ("'man incarnate' must also go mad") and René Girard's postmortem psychoanalysis posits a worshipful rivalry with Richard Wagner. The diagnosis of syphilis was challenged, and manic-depressive illness with periodic psychosis, followed by vascular dementia was put forward by Cybulska, prior Schain's. Leonard Sax, after a review of the medical evidence, concluded that the slow growth of a right-sided retro-orbital meningioma, not syphilis, is the most plausible explanation of Nietzsche’s dementia. Orth and Trimble postulate frontotemporal dementia, while other researchers proposed a syndrome called CADASIL.

thanks

[_madeleine]

I did the Mormon to exmo to atheist to Roman Catholic route. While yes, a lot of former LDS understandably go atheist or agnostic, I know many people who converted to RC directly from Mormonism.

As for your list of executive order beliefs/practices...I'm not getting the idea that you understand them. :)

Good for you Madeleine, I'm happy for you. I've extensively spoken to a few Mormons who converted to executive order, including one who has been an Orthodox priest. They recognize there are uncanny convergences. The influence of Greek philosophy is more subdued on executive order than on Catholicism and Protestantism. They say that Augustine couldn't read Greek really well and #%^ things up, and Mormons agree.

This is the list the former priest gave me:

1. Centrality of Priesthood and Temple and Authority
2. Deification
3. Jesus = YHWH
4. Original Guilt not inborn, but effects of Adam's sin (death, corruption, disease) continue
5. Ongoing revelation and miracles
6. Postbiblical documents that carry equal authority to the Bible
7. Mysteries (sacraments/ordinances) have real effect, not just symbols
8. Marriage essential to salvation (Orthodox consider monasticism a kind of marriage. The principle here is that no one is saved outside of obedience to community, the smallest unit of which is the family.)
9. Eternal progression and degrees of glory
10. Baptism by full immersion

Edit: They also read Gen. 1:26-27 "likeness" to mean physical likeness, although to executive order that refers to the Son, not the Father.

Edit: No filioque

My point is, the teachings associated to the list you have there are understood by Mormons FAR FAR differently than Catholics, east or west.

by the way, there isn't anything on that list that I, as a RC in a Catholic context, disagree with. Mormons extract them from their context into something else. The only difference you have on that list between east and west is the Filioque, which from a person with a Mormon/atheist background, it is slight when you compare Mormonism to Catholicism (east or west).

RC has a tradition of explaining the mysteries, using tools such as philosophy and theology. The East is much more inclined to accept the mysteries of God without an attempt, generally, to explain them. I like both approaches. Sometimes Roman Catholics over explain things, sometimes the Orthodox are too mysterious (personal taste here). Mormons over explain things to the 100th degree when compared to RC, so I've never understood the beef LDS have with using philosophy as a tool for explaining the mysteries of God.

edit to add: Philosophy and theology are a rational approaches to faith. LDS rejecting philsophy I see as rejecting taking a rational approach, and going with things like "feelings" or apologetics works that are lacking in reason (from my POV) and employ rationalizing. Mormons haven't found the discipline required for rational thought to be useful to supporting their faith, is all I can think.

[_nc47]

This is the list the former priest gave me:

1. Centrality of Priesthood and Temple and Authority
2. Deification
3. Jesus = YHWH
4. Original Guilt not inborn, but effects of Adam's sin (death, corruption, disease) continue
5. Ongoing revelation and miracles
6. Postbiblical documents that carry equal authority to the Bible
7. Mysteries (sacraments/ordinances) have real effect, not just symbols
8. Marriage essential to salvation (Orthodox consider monasticism a kind of marriage. The principle here is that no one is saved outside of obedience to community, the smallest unit of which is the family.)
9. Eternal progression and degrees of glory
10. Baptism by full immersion

Edit: They also read Gen. 1:26-27 "likeness" to mean physical likeness, although to executive order that refers to the Son, not the Father.

Edit: No filioque

My point is, the teachings associated to the list you have there are understood by Mormons FAR FAR differently than Catholics, east or west.

by the way, there isn't anything on that list that I, as a RC in a Catholic context, disagree with. Mormons extract them from their context into something else. The only difference you have on that list between east and west is the Filioque, which from a person with a Mormon/atheist background, it is slight when you compare Mormonism to Catholicism (east or west).

RC has a tradition of explaining the mysteries, using tools such as philosophy and theology. The East is much more inclined to accept the mysteries of God without an attempt, generally, to explain them. I like both approaches. Sometimes Roman Catholics over explain things, sometimes the Orthodox are too mysterious (personal taste here). Mormons over explain things to the 100th degree when compared to RC, so I've never understood the beef LDS have with using philosophy as a tool for explaining the mysteries of God.

Hmmmmm...I don't think so. Other than (7) they differ from you in all regards. They are aware of the differences more than you are. You don't call your churches temples and have a secluded area only Catholics can enter. You have deification but don't emphasize it the way they do. Catholics baptize by full immersion? Huh? Aquinas said 1:26-27 means moral and rational image only.

They don't use philosophy because you're going off into areas no one can really know anything about. Their theology is completely based on the Bible and patristics and other official church writings, and hence don't move off of into unknown data points.

Mormons have a beef with philosophy overturning the Bible (creation ex nihilo, divine unembodiment). Strip Christianity of Plato and you get Mormonism.

[_nc47]

Here is another one he gave me:

13. And now we are getting to the nitty-gritty and this may seem like the same thing as deification, which it is, but it is not. Let's divide deification into two movements, a single spiration of the Holy Spirit, one moving inward to illuminate the Saint and the other moving outward to illuminate the world. Deification is the first. The second is the Communion of Saints being the Council of gods.

The source of the ability to see Christ's Light is to be the Local Source for Christ's Light--to be Christ. One sees Christ's Light not in one own's mind or heart like some private possession. One sees Christ's Light illuminating the creation and the faces of the other Saints. It is a Community of Sanctity, of the embodied Divinity, embodied in each individually and as one corporately. This is the Remnant Church and we Orthodox keep it like a treasure hidden within us.

[_madeleine]

Here is another one he gave me:

13. And now we are getting to the nitty-gritty and this may seem like the same thing as deification, which it is, but it is not. Let's divide deification into two movements, a single spiration of the Holy Spirit, one moving inward to illuminate the Saint and the other moving outward to illuminate the world. Deification is the first. The second is the Communion of Saints being the Council of gods.

The source of the ability to see Christ's Light is to be the Local Source for Christ's Light--to be Christ. One sees Christ's Light not in one own's mind or heart like some private possession. One sees Christ's Light illuminating the creation and the faces of the other Saints. It is a Community of Sanctity, of the embodied Divinity, embodied in each individually and as one corporately. This is the Remnant Church and we Orthodox keep it like a treasure hidden within us.

Beautifully said, and I agree.

You should also understand the our understanding (east and west) of deification is sourced and centered on the Eucharist.