Ex-Mo's: Ever explore different options?

[Guest]

My point is this: Orthodox Christianity is the best-preserved Christianity from its original form. Mormonism is the restorationist tradition that got the most right. That is why we both believe the 2nd article of faith, both have "temple" written on our worship houses, both interpret Gen. 1:26-27 as physical image, laladalada.

In any case, God bless you, I'm glad you found a faith.

I'm not convinced you understand Catholic doctrine dogma or doctrines, east or west. You seem to be relying on a heterodox understanding that you favor because it suits your purposes. I didn't say the Orthodox are literalists, I said Mormons are. All of Christianity uses art to convey and teach doctrines and dogmas. It comes from a culture that has the fact of an illiterate population, for the majority of the time since Christ. My point is, LDS have a tendency to overlay their own belief over Christian art, rather than understanding the doctrines that are being taught.

We certainly do not believe grace is created, neither do we believe the Transfiguration is created. If anything, I'd say that is a view of LDS, as a created Transfiguration would fit an LDS idea of "progression".

edit to add: from the Catechism of the Catholic Church


1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.

One only has to look at the Catholic mystics to understand the Roman Catholic understanding of mysticism. Certainly, they had supernatural experiences, not that of the natural world. I have never seen where LDS understand mysticism, at all. There are no Mormon mystics.

Certainly we believe grace can be manifest itself in the natural world, as all of nature is a grace.

God bless you as well.

[_SteelHead]

Mormonism is the restorationist tradition that got the most right.

Care to support that assertion? Any particular branch of Mormonism, or all of them?

[_aussieguy55]

Kerry Shirts, after being an ardent defender of the faith, wanted to research current biblical studies and this was his undoing. He now no longer believes. What happened to his "spiritual" testimony? Is he just looking for an excuse to sin?

[_nc47]

My point is this: Orthodox Christianity is the best-preserved Christianity from its original form. Mormonism is the restorationist tradition that got the most right. That is why we both believe the 2nd article of faith, both have "temple" written on our worship houses, both interpret Gen. 1:26-27 as physical image, laladalada.

In any case, God bless you, I'm glad you found a faith.

I'm not convinced you understand Catholic doctrine dogma or doctrines, east or west. You seem to be relying on a heterodox understanding that you favor because it suits your purposes. I didn't say the Orthodox are literalists, I said Mormons are. All of Christianity uses art to convey and teach doctrines and dogmas. It comes from a culture that has the fact of an illiterate population, for the majority of the time since Christ. My point is, LDS have a tendency to overlay their own belief over Christian art, rather than understanding the doctrines that are being taught.

We certainly do not believe grace is created, neither do we believe the Transfiguration is created. If anything, I'd say that is a view of LDS, as a created Transfiguration would fit an LDS idea of "progression".

edit to add: from the Catechism of the Catholic Church


1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.

One only has to look at the Catholic mystics to understand the Roman Catholic understanding of mysticism. Certainly, they had supernatural experiences, not that of the natural world. I have never seen where LDS understand mysticism, at all. There are no Mormon mystics.

Certainly we believe grace can be manifest itself in the natural world, as all of nature is a grace.

God bless you as well.

Not heterodox and not just him but that's OK.

[_Droopy]

You believe was mad?

Ludwigm is a very strange cat. Though Nietzsche did succumb to madness in the last years of his life, I don't see any reason to think (and I'm not aware of any serious claims by anyone who's studied him) that he was mad during the bulk of his literary life. In Nietzsche we see the philosophical genesis of much that transpired in the 20th century, as well as the origins, or proto-origins, of the late 20th century postmodern mentality.

[_Droopy]

You can believe God is a panda and still hold a temple recommend.

Hardly.

[Guest]

I'm not ex-Mormon but when someone figures out LDS truth claims are not true, it's likely they will figure it out about Christianity as well.

For me it happened in the opposite order. I left the church because I came to the realization that Christianity made no sense.

There is in fact the CHURCH, and then there are churches. Not all churches are part of the CHURCH. The CHURCH is the body of all righteous believers. Christianity and Mormonism are not the same. Sure, the men might wear suits and ties ---- the women may wear dresses, hats and gloves but this obviously isn't what we are speaking of. So what part of CHRISTIANITY didn't make sense to you?

[_Quasimodo]

There is in fact the CHURCH, and then there are churches. Not all churches are part of the CHURCH. The CHURCH is the body of all righteous believers. Christianity and Mormonism are not the same. Sure, the men might wear suits and ties ---- the women may wear dresses, hats and gloves but this obviously isn't what we are speaking of. So what part of CHRISTIANITY didn't make sense you you?

It's good to know, LittleNipper, that when any of us need an expert opinion of what is or is not Christian, you will be there to tell us.

It must be greatly satisfying for you to have such an understanding of God's deepest thoughts.

[_Fence Sitter]

So what part of CHRISTIANITY didn't make sense you you?

Why an omnipotent being needs to be worshiped by insignificant creatures, have his son tortured to appease some twisted sense of cosmic justice, allowing the vast majority of his creations to be ignorant of him, creating a system where very few of his children are ever allowed to be with him again, stand by while billions of people die horrible deaths, take credit for all that is good but be excused from being responsible for anything bad that happens, set a system in place based on guilt and total depravity, and, the most insidious torture of all, making people sit in hot buildings dressed in confining, uncomfortable clothing for hours on end every Sunday.

Besides that, it is a pretty good system.

[_Kittens_and_Jesus]

So what part of CHRISTIANITY didn't make sense you you?

The initial thing that made no sense is the idea that a divine being had to come down and be sacrificed to make up for my mistakes. If anyone should atone for my misdeeds, it should be me.

Then I started thinking about how people give thanks to God when doctors, firemen, and EMTs did all the work, but also never blame God for anything.

If God is omnipotent and omniscient then He would be capable of controlling and therefore be responsible for everything that happened, is happening, and will happen in the universe. This includes every act of good and evil ever committed. Even if God takes His hands hands off the wheel, so to speak, His omniscience would make Him aware of the consequences of not acting beforehand. Free will makes no sense when you believe that an omniscient, omnipotent being created everything. Your will is created by genetic and environmental factors that would both be controllable and foreseen by an omniscient and omnipotent being.

I just don't see how the God of Abraham could possibly be real. If so, then He is the God of helping Suzy pass her math test on Friday while ignoring the cries of suffering all over the world. A cruel God I would rather not believe in, real or not.