Maksutov wrote:I still retain a great deal of respect for B. H. Roberts and James Talmage. They were earnest men who really valued truth. They tried to lift their people up, and showed great courage while trying to preserve their culture. It was difficult then and more so now. I don't feel confident that their like exists now.
Talmage has always been an enigma to me. He's described as a brilliant scientist, but then he writes something like this in his journal after hearing B.H. Roberts deliver a presentation to the Brethren about Book of Mormon difficulties:
James Talmage in his journal wrote:I know the Book of Mormon to be a true record; and many of the "difficulties," or objections as opposing critics would urge, are after all but negative in their nature. The Book of Mormon states that Lehi and his colony found horses upon this continent when they arrived; and therefore horses were here at that time. (Studies of the Book of Mormon at p. 22)
Seems like Talmage was willing to adopt a "head in the sand" approach when it came to problems with the Book of Mormon. At least Roberts was able to lay it on the line.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Maksutov wrote:I still retain a great deal of respect for B. H. Roberts and James Talmage. They were earnest men who really valued truth. They tried to lift their people up, and showed great courage while trying to preserve their culture. It was difficult then and more so now. I don't feel confident that their like exists now.
Talmage has always been an enigma to me. He's described as a brilliant scientist, but then he writes something like this in his journal after hearing B.H. Roberts deliver a presentation to the Brethren about Book of Mormon difficulties:
James Talmage in his journal wrote:I know the Book of Mormon to be a true record; and many of the "difficulties," or objections as opposing critics would urge, are after all but negative in their nature. The Book of Mormon states that Lehi and his colony found horses upon this continent when they arrived; and therefore horses were here at that time. (Studies of the Book of Mormon at p. 22)
Seems like Talmage was willing to adopt a "head in the sand" approach when it came to problems with the Book of Mormon. At least Roberts was able to lay it on the line.
Talmage wasn't willing to go up against Joseph Fielding Smith, especially while JFS' daddy was still running the show. Still, he tried to keep the idea of pre-Adamites before the saints, and he promoted higher education in Utah, within limits. Roberts was more my style, but then he was a bit of a wild man in his youth.
Maksutov wrote:Talmage wasn't willing to go up against Joseph Fielding Smith, especially while JFS' daddy was still running the show. Still, he tried to keep the idea of pre-Adamites before the saints, and he promoted higher education in Utah, within limits. Roberts was more my style, but then he was a bit of a wild man in his youth.
B.H. Roberts was my kind of guy -- very flawed, but a genuine man to the end. I doubt we'll ever see the likes of him again (these days, it seems like only "yes" men who will do the bidding of their superiors, are called as general authorities).
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Maksutov wrote:Talmage wasn't willing to go up against Joseph Fielding Smith, especially while JFS' daddy was still running the show. Still, he tried to keep the idea of pre-Adamites before the saints, and he promoted higher education in Utah, within limits. Roberts was more my style, but then he was a bit of a wild man in his youth.
B.H. Roberts was my kind of guy -- very flawed, but a genuine man to the end. I doubt we'll ever see the likes of him again (these days, it seems like only "yes" men who will do the bidding of their superiors, are called as general authorities).
A great pic. This was the disguise he wore in 1884 while a missionary in Tennessee (he was actually the mission president, at just 27 years old), when he sneaked to a local LDS family's home where two LDS missionaries from Utah under his charge, John Gibbs and William Berry, had been attacked and murdered by a mob (two local LDS members were also killed in the attack). Roberts wanted to recover the bodies and send them home for burial, but he was told he would be killed by the mob if he made any attempt. Roberts went anyway (despite the real risk to his life). He dressed up as a hobo (as shown in the photo), walked into enemy territory (while avoiding the mob), and recovered the bodies; they were sent home by rail and buried in Utah. Yup, ol' B.H. Roberts had some serious balls.
I read the account of this in his autobiography (and great book, by the way).
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
A great pic. This was the disguise he wore in 1884 while a missionary in Tennessee (he was actually the mission president, at just 27 years old), when he sneaked to a local LDS family's home where two LDS missionaries from Utah under his charge, John Gibbs and William Berry, had been attacked and murdered by a mob (two local LDS members were also killed in the attack). Roberts wanted to recover the bodies and send them home for burial, but he was told he would be killed by the mob if he made any attempt. Roberts went anyway (despite the real risk to his life). He dressed up as a hobo (as shown in the photo), walked into enemy territory (while avoiding the mob), and recovered the bodies; they were sent home by rail and buried in Utah. Yup, ol' B.H. Roberts had some serious balls.
I read the account of this in his autobiography (and great book, by the way).
It is indeed. I wish Truman Madsen had not tried civilizing him.
I remember back in the late 70s when I heard about his Book of Mormon difficulties manuscript. I think I must have read about it in some of the Tanners' literature. Anyway, I knew how the Tanners could spin and so wanted to see it for myself. I went to the Marriott Library, Special Collections, and requested it. An elderly librarian brought me a box, like a broad shoebox, with a copy of the manuscript in loose sheets. I was a little surprised at what it was but thanked her. She stood in front of me for a moment and said, tearfully, "He always believed in the church." Then she walked quickly away. She was clearly rattled. When I went to return the document, someone else helped me.
Maksutov wrote:I remember back in the late 70s when I heard about his Book of Mormon difficulties manuscript. I think I must have read about it in some of the Tanners' literature. Anyway, I knew how the Tanners could spin and so wanted to see it for myself. I went to the Marriott Library, Special Collections, and requested it. An elderly librarian brought me a box, like a broad shoebox, with a copy of the manuscript in loose sheets. I was a little surprised at what it was but thanked her. She stood in front of me for a moment and said, tearfully, "He always believed in the church." Then she walked quickly away. She was clearly rattled. When I went to return the document, someone else helped me.
I'm surprised the Church didn't have every copy of the manuscript burned. With Brigham Madsen's publication, we have it forever, and I consider it a real gem despite how the Givens of the world now try to dismiss it.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Maksutov wrote:I remember back in the late 70s when I heard about his Book of Mormon difficulties manuscript. I think I must have read about it in some of the Tanners' literature. Anyway, I knew how the Tanners could spin and so wanted to see it for myself. I went to the Marriott Library, Special Collections, and requested it. An elderly librarian brought me a box, like a broad shoebox, with a copy of the manuscript in loose sheets. I was a little surprised at what it was but thanked her. She stood in front of me for a moment and said, tearfully, "He always believed in the church." Then she walked quickly away. She was clearly rattled. When I went to return the document, someone else helped me.
I'm surprised the Church didn't have every copy of the manuscript burned. With Brigham Madsen's publication, we have it forever, and I consider it a real gem despite how the Givens of the world now try to dismiss it.
I only got to meet one swearing elder, Bill Mulder. He became a friend in his last years. Wish I'd met Madsen and McMurrin.
Roberts’s whole dilemma was born of a faulty assumption he imbibed wholesale, never questioning, never critically analyzing it—that Lehi arrived on an empty continent, and that his descendants alone eventually overran the hemisphere from the Arctic Circle to the Straits of Magellan.
Stormy Waters wrote:Rollo, Hopefully Givens will be made aware of your post here.
Rollo, I strongly encourage you make certain that Givens reads your outstanding post by sending it to him in an email. If he doesn't stop misrepresenting Roberts then we know he is prepared to tell outright lies.
Email addy tgivens[at]richmond[dot]edu
I lost interest in Givens when he claimed that the NHM inscriptions were the strongest evidence for the Book of Mormon.
LDS apologetics --> "It's not the crime, it's the cover-up, which creates the scandal." "Bigfoot is a crucial part of the ecosystem, if he exists. So let's all help keep Bigfoot possibly alive for future generations to enjoy, unless he doesn't exist." - Futurama
Simon Southerton wrote: Rollo, I strongly encourage you make certain that Givens reads your outstanding post by sending it to him in an email. If he doesn't stop misrepresenting Roberts then we know he is prepared to tell outright lies.
Email addy tgivens[at]richmond[dot]edu
I love this idea.
Simon Southerton wrote:I lost interest in Givens when he claimed that the NHM inscriptions were the strongest evidence for the Book of Mormon.
Yes, folks, it really is *that* bad. If NHM is your best, I guess you're forced to roll with it.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
