Event: Special Fireside for Disaffected Swedish LDS Saints

[_BartBurk]

Geesh. I'm sure glad I printed off a copy. It's a real 'gold mine' as to how the Church is dealing with the tough issues (pretty poorly, as shown in the minutes). The most damning part is not even in the minutes (don't know why) -- in part 4 of his interview with Dehlin, Mattsson recounts in vivid detail how, at the end of the meeting, Area President Erich Kopischke made direct threats against the members in attendance at the "secret" meeting, forbidding them from speaking about anything discussed at the meeting, followed by an ultimatum that they had to choose to be in or out of the Church, and then having their bishops follow up to get their answer. That's the part that really sickened me.

The LDS Church might not be able to survive that type of an attitude.

[_Themis]

And now it's gone viral. Onto the front page of the Sunday NY Times, for pete's sake.

That's what happens when you don't take care of the little things; they turn into big things that require a lot more attention.

What can they do other then admitting the church is not true, but the church can try to meet their social and spiritual needs?

[_grindael]

You may also get a copy here, if you are interested. http://www.mormondoctrine.net/wp-conten ... m_2010.pdf

I have updated my first post with the new link.

[_grindael]

For any who want the audio, I have a source who says it it coming soon. I will post it when I get it, (if he comes through).

[Guest]

I found this at archive.org that bears on what happened here. http://archive.org/details/TheMormonSwe ... eDocuments

If you want to translate it, go to google translator here. http://translate.google.com/?tl=sv

I found it odd that they are claiming that the Nag Hammadi documents are scripture (page 22)

Nag Hammadi Scriptures

In the councils of Nicea (AD 325 - AD 381 AD) under Emperor Constantine's leadership was compromised and decided how many Christian faiths were united in a common doctrine.

There are many writings from the period up to Niceamötena, which contains information about what the various Christian faiths believed. And in these writings contain information about the doctrines that were restored to Joseph Smith also practiced in the original church. These doctrines were not known at the time of Joseph Smith.

In 1945 was discovered in the small town of Nag Hammadi in Egypt a very small library of 1,500 papyrus pages containing beliefs that are mainly found in the Gnostic doctrine during the first 300 years AD Therefore, in Nag Hammadi Scriptures find several doctrines that are not in the Joseph Smith restored the church. But there is also a doctrine that Joseph Smith restored. Some interesting doctrines found in Nag Hammadi Scriptures: a) Jesus Christ preached to the dead, b) The free will absolute significance, c) Husband and wife in the marriage covenant may have the authority to create their own worlds, d) Pre-Existence and that creation first took place in the heavenly places. (These and more re-established doctrines and practices are also found in other patristikskrifter)

James M. Robinson's book: The Nag Hammadi Library, HarperSanFrancisco, 1990, contains all the Nag Hammadi writings translated into English.

MormonThink also has it here.. http://www.mormonthink.com/swedish-rescue.htm

[_Equality]

The transcript has been removed.

From John Dehlin in the comments section.

Hey all – For the record, I spoke with someone at church headquarters (a friend) who expressed concern about my sharing the Jensen/Turley transcript without permission (from the standpoint of Mormon Stories and my own relationship to the church), so I decided to take it down.

Sorry for the change. This is a tough line/balance to walk for me, but I feel like this is the best decision after talking w/ my friend.

John Dehlin's belly:


I read the transcript, and it is obvious why the church would not want it published. I almost feel like apologizing to bcspace who claimed he could give better answers than Jensen and Turley. Jensen obfuscated and Turley just told whatever lie he thought might placate the questioner. I bet those two had no idea what they were in for. No wonder the Brethren's standard MO is to stonewall and speak through PR hacks and avoid questions from members. It's a bad strategy, but certainly no worse than sending leaders into Q&A sessions like that one. What a disaster.

[_grindael]

Here is the audio...

http://www.mediafire.com/download/ot7rh ... -part1.mp3

http://www.mediafire.com/download/xif11 ... -part2.mp3

[_Bazooka]

The most damning part is not even in the minutes (don't know why) -- in part 4 of his interview with Dehlin, Mattsson recounts in vivid detail how, at the end of the meeting, Area President Erich Kopischke made direct threats against the members in attendance at the "secret" meeting, forbidding them from speaking about anything discussed at the meeting, followed by an ultimatum that they had to choose to be in or out of the Church, and then having their bishops follow up to get their answer. That's the part that really sickened me.

But it's not a cult....

[_annie]

I read the transcript, and it is obvious why the church would not want it published. I almost feel like apologizing to bcspace who claimed he could give better answers than Jensen and Turley. Jensen obfuscated and Turley just told whatever lie he thought might placate the questioner. I bet those two had no idea what they were in for. No wonder the Brethren's standard MO is to stonewall and speak through PR hacks and avoid questions from members. It's a bad strategy, but certainly no worse than sending leaders into Q&A sessions like that one. What a disaster.

It really is a disaster. I remember when I first discovered all this stuff, I thought there *must* be reasonable explanations somewhere. I didn't find them at FAIR or FARMS, but for a while I continued to believe that the people at the top could provide answers. This transcript proves that they haven't got a clue. If I'd seen it years ago it could have saved me time and worry.

And I just have to say that the tenacity and persistence of the Swedes in the meeting is outstanding. Good for them.

[_cinepro]

Oh my gosh. Reading that transcript was like watching a horror movie; I wanted to cover my eyes as it got more gruesome.

That was honestly one of the most painful exchanges I've ever read. The frankness of the questioners was just brutal, and they would not accept the usual crap answers that we've been hearing for years. Their BS detectors were off the charts, and they were not happy about it.

I have a lot of respect for Elder Jensen and Brother Turley, but I can't believe they traveled half-way around the world and didn't come better prepared. It's almost like they're still in the 1970s, and expecting Church members to start asking about "The Godmakers" or something.

One of the most important components of many Church members' faith is the belief that our leaders have "The Answers", even if we don't. If exchanges like this become more common, it will be devastating to many people to find out that not only do the leaders of the Church not have "The Answers", but the answers they do have are bush-league and not even as good as what you can get from unofficial websites or defenders on message boards. I can think of a dozen posters on MDDB who might not have hit those questions out of the park, but they could at least gotten some solid base hits.