Is hell enough as punishment?

[_LittleNipper]

Bible-believers are full of clever (and some not so clever) rationalizations. The crucial question, however, is not whether "answers" can be generated in response to Bible difficulties but whether credible answers can be produced. What is the best explanation? Bible-believers seem to think that any loophole, however improbable, that gets the Bible off the hook has solved the problem. Thus, it is not surprising that different, conflicting answers are often presented side by side. It never seems to occur to these people that such logic will also support the story of Goldilocks and the three bears! Or the Koran. Or, anything else. Once we abandon the probable in favor of the improbable--or even the less probable--we have abandoned objectivity. Without objectivity, there is not much hope of finding the truth; we only succeed in confirming our own prejudiced views--even as a group of flat-Earth folks in California did for years in their newsletters.
[Emphasis added]

[/quote]
It is just another example of the ad hoc, ingeniously contrived and convoluted logic designed to avoid having to admit the obvious but uncomfortable truth. And it still doesn't even begin to address the undeniable, massive failure of Ezekiel's prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar would conquer Egypt and leave it desolate and uninhabitable for 40 years![/quote]
Egypt's 40-Year Desolation



Dear Mr. Salus, Greetings in the Name of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. In reading some of your articles it is clear you believe Psalm 83 precedes Ezekiel 38. I’m puzzled about some prophecies regarding Egypt in the end time's. Could you please answer the following questions?

Q. Ezekiel 29:12-13 says Egypt is made desolate for 40 years, has this happened in history?
A. I believe Egypt's 40-year desolation period, which corresponds with the 40-years of Egyptian deportation into world nations remains, an unfulfilled prophecy. However, some expositors believe this has already been fulfilled. To argue their point they often refer to the writings of the Jewish Historian Josephus in “Antiquities, Book 10, Chapter 11, Section 1". Book 10 is titled, "From the Captivity of the Ten Tribes to the First of Cyrus" and Chapter 11 is titled, "Concerning Nebuchadnezzar and His Successors, and How Their Government was Dissolved by the Persians; and What Things Befell Daniel in Media; and What Prophecies He Delivered There".

In this section Josephus appears to quote Berosus from "the third book of his Chaldaic History" that a young Nebuchadnezzar was sent by his father to conquer Egypt due to rebellion by the Egyptian governor appointed by Nebuchadnezzar's father. Deportation is spoken of as follows, "...the captive Jews, and Phoenicians, and Syrians, and those of the Egyptian nations, and having committed the conveyance of them to Babylon..." (i)

The Egyptian 40-year captivity could have been fulfilled at this time; however it is hard to find historical or archaeological proof that this past deportation spanned 40-years. Thus Ezekiel 29:12 may still be a pending prophetic event.

I recently emailed the following comments to a friend regarding the 40-year Egyptian deportation. "There is the inference of Egyptian deportation by Josephus but it seems to be for an unspecified time. Some estimated dates of importance in considering the length of the Egyptian deportation are Nebuchadnezzar invaded Egypt in 568 B.C. and Cyrus of Persia, defeated Babylon in 539 b.c. From these dates it is difficult to determine if the 40-year deportation was fulfilled.

Portions of Ezekiel 29-30 seem to find connections with Nebuchadnezzar's time; however Ezekiel 30:3 alludes to the "day of the Lord," which is commonly associated with the Tribulation period. Additionally, Ezekiel 30:5 speaks of more than Egypt being attacked. It alludes to Ethiopia, Libya, Lydia, and Chub. The expanse of Nebuchadnezzar’s kingdom seems to not have included all these countries. Therefore, this part of Ezekiel's prophecy seems to connect better with Daniel 11:42-43, which is also often taught to be a Tribulation event.

Thus, we have to consider the possibility that Ezekiel 29-30 contain both near (fulfilled during prophets lifetime) and far (to be fulfilled after the prophets lifetime) prophecies. Some events Ezekiel describes clearly found fulfillment during Nebuchadnezzar’s time (near), whereas others seem to be reserved for future fulfillment.

Isaiah 19:16-18 and Daniel 11:42-43 are far prophecies and could trigger the forty years of Egyptian deportation. If so then forty years could commence after either Psalm 83 or Daniel 11:42-43. In either instance the deportation could carry over somewhat into the Messianic kingdom.

It is hard to imagine how 82 million Egyptians today, minus those slain and those who remain in Egypt after both Psalm 83 and Daniel 11:42-43, could be deported in the future. But, that could be what the Ezekiel 29:12 implies."

Additionally the widely respected eschatologist, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum discusses these topics briefly in his Footsteps of the Messiah. The pertinent pages to study regarding Isaiah 19 and Ezekiel 29 are 497-509. In a nutshell, he states that because of Egypt's longstanding hatred of Israel ... they will suffer desolation similar to that of Edom according to Joel 3:19. This desolation will lead to the 40-years of Egyptian deportation.

However, at the end of the deportation an Egyptian remnant will be regathered and Egypt restored. But, Egypt will be a lowly kingdom throughout the 1000-year Messianic Kingdom. Arnold believes the first 40 years of the Messianic Kingdom could find the land of Egypt in a desolate condition and Egyptians dispersed throughout the world. Thus, he appears to believe the 40-year deportation is still a pending prophetic event and could overlap into the Messianic Kingdom.

I agree with Dr. Fruchtenbaum that the deportation could extend into the Messianic Kingdom, but if the deportation commences after Psalm 83, then I don’t believe there will be a full 40-year overlap. If Israel's victory over Egypt in Psalm 83 begins the 40-year Egyptian deportation process, then I believe much of this 40-year period could elapse before the Messianic Kingdom even commences.

Q. Isaiah 19:23 says there will be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt. When do you believe this finds fulfillment?

A. I believe this finds fulfillment during the 1000-year Messianic Kingdom period.

Q. Isaiah 19:18 says 5 cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan. Has this happened in history?

A. The language of Canaan was Hebrew. I believe this remains an unfulfilled prophecy. Contextually, these five cities speak Hebrew after Egypt has a terrorizing encounter with Judah (Israel). I believe this encounter has to do with Egypt's participation in the climactic concluding Arab - Israeli war described in Psalm 83. Egypt is identified in Psalm 83 under the banner of the "Hagarenes." Hagar was the Egyptian matriarch who mothered Ishmael to Abraham.

However, some teach this may have already found fulfillment. Here is what the "New Commentary on the Whole Bible; Old Testament" says - "By Jeremiah’s day, 130 years later (Jer. 44:1), four places are addressed by the prophet as having Hebrew speakers: Migdol and Tahpanes, both in the northeastern delta; Noph (Memphis), located at the base of the delta; and Pathros, upper Egypt. Elephantine Island, at Egypt’s southern border, was inhabited by Jews in the sixth century b.c."
......
(i) Research provided by Danny Isom of Moriel Ministries
Posted by AUTHOR / LECTURER at 10:13 AM

[Guest]

I see no evidence that there was some great Jesus conspiracy theory.

So? It doesn't mean you have good evidence that the claims made by the Old Testament or New Testament are accurate. I could take any ancient text that make other claims. They have as much evidence going for them which is almost nothing.

Such a statement says to me, you do not understand what it means to reason.

Give a definition and we will see. Again the Old Testament and New Testament are claims made by people you never knew, and are made at later times then the events claimed, and generally not by the people who are supposed to be apart of the events. I am not saying they didn't happen as claimed, but since there is little evidence to back them up, there is little reason to just accept them as fact. If you want to believe fine, but that is the only level it climbs to. The reason I was asking is you seem to be indicating you knew certain things as fact. I was curious how you thought you know. I see that you seem to be giving some things far to much credibility based on no good evidence. While LDS and some other groups don't like to rely on physical facts, they at least claim to know from spiritual sources they incorrectly interpret as coming directly from divine being.

[_Gunnar]

Bible-believers are full of clever (and some not so clever) rationalizations. The crucial question, however, is not whether "answers" can be generated in response to Bible difficulties but whether credible answers can be produced. What is the best explanation? Bible-believers seem to think that any loophole, however improbable, that gets the Bible off the hook has solved the problem. Thus, it is not surprising that different, conflicting answers are often presented side by side. It never seems to occur to these people that such logic will also support the story of Goldilocks and the three bears! Or the Koran. Or, anything else. Once we abandon the probable in favor of the improbable--or even the less probable--we have abandoned objectivity. Without objectivity, there is not much hope of finding the truth; we only succeed in confirming our own prejudiced views--even as a group of flat-Earth folks in California did for years in their newsletters.
[Emphasis added]
It is just another example of the ad hoc, ingeniously contrived and convoluted logic designed to avoid having to admit the obvious but uncomfortable truth. And it still doesn't even begin to address the undeniable, massive failure of Ezekiel's prophecy that Nebuchadnezzar would conquer Egypt and leave it desolate and uninhabitable for 40 years!

Egypt's 40-Year Desolation



Dear Mr. Salus, Greetings in the Name of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. In reading some of your articles it is clear you believe Psalm 83 precedes Ezekiel 38. I’m puzzled about some prophecies regarding Egypt in the end time's. Could you please answer the following questions?

Q. Ezekiel 29:12-13 says Egypt is made desolate for 40 years, has this happened in history?
A. I believe Egypt's 40-year desolation period, which corresponds with the 40-years of Egyptian deportation into world nations remains, an unfulfilled prophecy. However, some expositors believe this has already been fulfilled. To argue their point they often refer to the writings of the Jewish Historian Josephus in “Antiquities, Book 10, Chapter 11, Section 1". Book 10 is titled, "From the Captivity of the Ten Tribes to the First of Cyrus" and Chapter 11 is titled, "Concerning Nebuchadnezzar and His Successors, and How Their Government was Dissolved by the Persians; and What Things Befell Daniel in Media; and What Prophecies He Delivered There".

In this section Josephus appears to quote Berosus from "the third book of his Chaldaic History" that a young Nebuchadnezzar was sent by his father to conquer Egypt due to rebellion by the Egyptian governor appointed by Nebuchadnezzar's father. Deportation is spoken of as follows, "...the captive Jews, and Phoenicians, and Syrians, and those of the Egyptian nations, and having committed the conveyance of them to Babylon..." (i)

The Egyptian 40-year captivity could have been fulfilled at this time; however it is hard to find historical or archaeological proof that this past deportation spanned 40-years. Thus Ezekiel 29:12 may still be a pending prophetic event.

I recently emailed the following comments to a friend regarding the 40-year Egyptian deportation. "There is the inference of Egyptian deportation by Josephus but it seems to be for an unspecified time. Some estimated dates of importance in considering the length of the Egyptian deportation are Nebuchadnezzar invaded Egypt in 568 B.C. and Cyrus of Persia, defeated Babylon in 539 b.c. From these dates it is difficult to determine if the 40-year deportation was fulfilled.

Portions of Ezekiel 29-30 seem to find connections with Nebuchadnezzar's time; however Ezekiel 30:3 alludes to the "day of the Lord," which is commonly associated with the Tribulation period. Additionally, Ezekiel 30:5 speaks of more than Egypt being attacked. It alludes to Ethiopia, Libya, Lydia, and Chub. The expanse of Nebuchadnezzar’s kingdom seems to not have included all these countries. Therefore, this part of Ezekiel's prophecy seems to connect better with Daniel 11:42-43, which is also often taught to be a Tribulation event.

Thus, we have to consider the possibility that Ezekiel 29-30 contain both near (fulfilled during prophets lifetime) and far (to be fulfilled after the prophets lifetime) prophecies. Some events Ezekiel describes clearly found fulfillment during Nebuchadnezzar’s time (near), whereas others seem to be reserved for future fulfillment.

Isaiah 19:16-18 and Daniel 11:42-43 are far prophecies and could trigger the forty years of Egyptian deportation. If so then forty years could commence after either Psalm 83 or Daniel 11:42-43. In either instance the deportation could carry over somewhat into the Messianic kingdom.

It is hard to imagine how 82 million Egyptians today, minus those slain and those who remain in Egypt after both Psalm 83 and Daniel 11:42-43, could be deported in the future. But, that could be what the Ezekiel 29:12 implies."

Additionally the widely respected eschatologist, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum discusses these topics briefly in his Footsteps of the Messiah. The pertinent pages to study regarding Isaiah 19 and Ezekiel 29 are 497-509. In a nutshell, he states that because of Egypt's longstanding hatred of Israel ... they will suffer desolation similar to that of Edom according to Joel 3:19. This desolation will lead to the 40-years of Egyptian deportation.

However, at the end of the deportation an Egyptian remnant will be regathered and Egypt restored. But, Egypt will be a lowly kingdom throughout the 1000-year Messianic Kingdom. Arnold believes the first 40 years of the Messianic Kingdom could find the land of Egypt in a desolate condition and Egyptians dispersed throughout the world. Thus, he appears to believe the 40-year deportation is still a pending prophetic event and could overlap into the Messianic Kingdom.

I agree with Dr. Fruchtenbaum that the deportation could extend into the Messianic Kingdom, but if the deportation commences after Psalm 83, then I don’t believe there will be a full 40-year overlap. If Israel's victory over Egypt in Psalm 83 begins the 40-year Egyptian deportation process, then I believe much of this 40-year period could elapse before the Messianic Kingdom even commences.

Q. Isaiah 19:23 says there will be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt. When do you believe this finds fulfillment?

A. I believe this finds fulfillment during the 1000-year Messianic Kingdom period.

Q. Isaiah 19:18 says 5 cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan. Has this happened in history?

A. The language of Canaan was Hebrew. I believe this remains an unfulfilled prophecy. Contextually, these five cities speak Hebrew after Egypt has a terrorizing encounter with Judah (Israel). I believe this encounter has to do with Egypt's participation in the climactic concluding Arab - Israeli war described in Psalm 83. Egypt is identified in Psalm 83 under the banner of the "Hagarenes." Hagar was the Egyptian matriarch who mothered Ishmael to Abraham.

However, some teach this may have already found fulfillment. Here is what the "New Commentary on the Whole Bible; Old Testament" says - "By Jeremiah’s day, 130 years later (Jer. 44:1), four places are addressed by the prophet as having Hebrew speakers: Migdol and Tahpanes, both in the northeastern delta; Noph (Memphis), located at the base of the delta; and Pathros, upper Egypt. Elephantine Island, at Egypt’s southern border, was inhabited by Jews in the sixth century b.c."
......
(i) Research provided by Danny Isom of Moriel Ministries
Posted by AUTHOR / LECTURER at 10:13 AM

Sorry, LittleNipper. This didn't help your case at all! It is merely more of the desperate, ad hoc, convoluted rationalizations I have already pointed out and criticized--another vain and failed attempt to salvage the unsalvageable! Do you really, honestly think that it is at all likely that another king named Nebuchadnezzar will some day arise and fullfil Ezekiel's prophecy? Do you think it is even the slightest bit rational to defend Biblical inerrency by clinging desperately to the increasingly faint possibility that apparently failed, ancient prophecies might yet be fulfilled if we just wait long enough? One thing is reasonably certain, though. If no time limit is given for the fullfilment of any given Biblical prophecy, and it is vague enough or imaginately enough or somehow allegorically interpreted, something will eventually happen somewhere that someone with sufficient ingenuity will be able to claim as a fullfilment of the prophecy.

[_LittleNipper]

Egypt's 40-Year Desolation



Dear Mr. Salus, Greetings in the Name of our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ. In reading some of your articles it is clear you believe Psalm 83 precedes Ezekiel 38. I’m puzzled about some prophecies regarding Egypt in the end time's. Could you please answer the following questions?

Q. Ezekiel 29:12-13 says Egypt is made desolate for 40 years, has this happened in history?
A. I believe Egypt's 40-year desolation period, which corresponds with the 40-years of Egyptian deportation into world nations remains, an unfulfilled prophecy. However, some expositors believe this has already been fulfilled. To argue their point they often refer to the writings of the Jewish Historian Josephus in “Antiquities, Book 10, Chapter 11, Section 1". Book 10 is titled, "From the Captivity of the Ten Tribes to the First of Cyrus" and Chapter 11 is titled, "Concerning Nebuchadnezzar and His Successors, and How Their Government was Dissolved by the Persians; and What Things Befell Daniel in Media; and What Prophecies He Delivered There".

In this section Josephus appears to quote Berosus from "the third book of his Chaldaic History" that a young Nebuchadnezzar was sent by his father to conquer Egypt due to rebellion by the Egyptian governor appointed by Nebuchadnezzar's father. Deportation is spoken of as follows, "...the captive Jews, and Phoenicians, and Syrians, and those of the Egyptian nations, and having committed the conveyance of them to Babylon..." (i)

The Egyptian 40-year captivity could have been fulfilled at this time; however it is hard to find historical or archaeological proof that this past deportation spanned 40-years. Thus Ezekiel 29:12 may still be a pending prophetic event.

I recently emailed the following comments to a friend regarding the 40-year Egyptian deportation. "There is the inference of Egyptian deportation by Josephus but it seems to be for an unspecified time. Some estimated dates of importance in considering the length of the Egyptian deportation are Nebuchadnezzar invaded Egypt in 568 B.C. and Cyrus of Persia, defeated Babylon in 539 b.c. From these dates it is difficult to determine if the 40-year deportation was fulfilled.

Portions of Ezekiel 29-30 seem to find connections with Nebuchadnezzar's time; however Ezekiel 30:3 alludes to the "day of the Lord," which is commonly associated with the Tribulation period. Additionally, Ezekiel 30:5 speaks of more than Egypt being attacked. It alludes to Ethiopia, Libya, Lydia, and Chub. The expanse of Nebuchadnezzar’s kingdom seems to not have included all these countries. Therefore, this part of Ezekiel's prophecy seems to connect better with Daniel 11:42-43, which is also often taught to be a Tribulation event.

Thus, we have to consider the possibility that Ezekiel 29-30 contain both near (fulfilled during prophets lifetime) and far (to be fulfilled after the prophets lifetime) prophecies. Some events Ezekiel describes clearly found fulfillment during Nebuchadnezzar’s time (near), whereas others seem to be reserved for future fulfillment.

Isaiah 19:16-18 and Daniel 11:42-43 are far prophecies and could trigger the forty years of Egyptian deportation. If so then forty years could commence after either Psalm 83 or Daniel 11:42-43. In either instance the deportation could carry over somewhat into the Messianic kingdom.

It is hard to imagine how 82 million Egyptians today, minus those slain and those who remain in Egypt after both Psalm 83 and Daniel 11:42-43, could be deported in the future. But, that could be what the Ezekiel 29:12 implies."

Additionally the widely respected eschatologist, Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum discusses these topics briefly in his Footsteps of the Messiah. The pertinent pages to study regarding Isaiah 19 and Ezekiel 29 are 497-509. In a nutshell, he states that because of Egypt's longstanding hatred of Israel ... they will suffer desolation similar to that of Edom according to Joel 3:19. This desolation will lead to the 40-years of Egyptian deportation.

However, at the end of the deportation an Egyptian remnant will be regathered and Egypt restored. But, Egypt will be a lowly kingdom throughout the 1000-year Messianic Kingdom. Arnold believes the first 40 years of the Messianic Kingdom could find the land of Egypt in a desolate condition and Egyptians dispersed throughout the world. Thus, he appears to believe the 40-year deportation is still a pending prophetic event and could overlap into the Messianic Kingdom.

I agree with Dr. Fruchtenbaum that the deportation could extend into the Messianic Kingdom, but if the deportation commences after Psalm 83, then I don’t believe there will be a full 40-year overlap. If Israel's victory over Egypt in Psalm 83 begins the 40-year Egyptian deportation process, then I believe much of this 40-year period could elapse before the Messianic Kingdom even commences.

Q. Isaiah 19:23 says there will be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt. When do you believe this finds fulfillment?

A. I believe this finds fulfillment during the 1000-year Messianic Kingdom period.

Q. Isaiah 19:18 says 5 cities in Egypt will speak the language of Canaan. Has this happened in history?

A. The language of Canaan was Hebrew. I believe this remains an unfulfilled prophecy. Contextually, these five cities speak Hebrew after Egypt has a terrorizing encounter with Judah (Israel). I believe this encounter has to do with Egypt's participation in the climactic concluding Arab - Israeli war described in Psalm 83. Egypt is identified in Psalm 83 under the banner of the "Hagarenes." Hagar was the Egyptian matriarch who mothered Ishmael to Abraham.

However, some teach this may have already found fulfillment. Here is what the "New Commentary on the Whole Bible; Old Testament" says - "By Jeremiah’s day, 130 years later (Jer. 44:1), four places are addressed by the prophet as having Hebrew speakers: Migdol and Tahpanes, both in the northeastern delta; Noph (Memphis), located at the base of the delta; and Pathros, upper Egypt. Elephantine Island, at Egypt’s southern border, was inhabited by Jews in the sixth century b.c."
......
(i) Research provided by Danny Isom of Moriel Ministries
Posted by AUTHOR / LECTURER at 10:13 AM

Sorry, LittleNipper. This didn't help your case at all! It is merely more of the desperate, ad hoc, convoluted rationalizations I have already pointed out and criticized--another vain and failed attempt to salvage the unsalvageable! Do you really, honestly think that it is at all likely that another king named Nebuchadnezzar will some day arise and fullfil Ezekiel's prophecy? Do you think it is even the slightest bit rational to defend Biblical inerrency by clinging desperately to the increasingly faint possibility that apparently failed, ancient prophecies might yet be fulfilled if we just wait long enough? One thing is reasonably certain, though. If no time limit is given for the fullfilment of any given Biblical prophecy, and it is vague enough or imaginately enough or somehow allegorically interpreted, something will eventually happen somewhere that someone with sufficient ingenuity will be able to claim as a fullfilment of the prophecy.

Those that hold to billions and billions of years ---- plus evolution as the means of existence/diversity of various species have far less and accept far more...

[_madeleine]

I don't see that it is necessary for a primary source to have been written in Aramaic, when the common language at Jerusalem and the surrounding areas, was Greek.

Around BC "0" (zero) or AD 0 (zero)?
Barely...

Greek was the lingua franca in the Mediterranean Basin. It wasn't "common". It was a language all educated people know...

Jesus (if he existed at all...) was well educated - spake Greek. Pontius Pilatus (in stupid English Pilate...) , as most of his educated contemporaries, probably spake/knew Greek. They talked in Greek - if the story has any truth element.

The plebs spake aramaic.

Today, 85% of Swedish people speak English. WHEN and IF they talk with foreigners. It is not "common" - when no foreigners are present...

Yes, and so there is no reason to dismiss New Testament writings in Greek, as suspicious.

[_madeleine]

So? It doesn't mean you have good evidence that the claims made by the Old Testament or New Testament are accurate. I could take any ancient text that make other claims. They have as much evidence going for them which is almost nothing.

Accurate in what way? I am not trying to be slippery, just some people expect a level of accuracy that is unreasonable. As an example, incongruities between the Gospels bring into questions accuracy of details. But what would be more suspicious, four accounts that are exactly the same, or four accounts that differ? If we are in a court of law, and I bring forward four witnesses who give an account that is generally the same, but the details are contradictory, is that more suspicious than four accounts given exactly the same? A friend of mine who is a court judge tells me that when multiple witnesses are so exact, as to have no discrepancies, there is suspicion of collusion.

So, let's reason a balance. Four accounts should be similar in major ways, but we should expect discrepancies in the details, not surprised or shocked by them.

Give a definition and we will see. Again the Old Testament and New Testament are claims made by people you never knew, and are made at later times then the events claimed, and generally not by the people who are supposed to be apart of the events. I am not saying they didn't happen as claimed, but since there is little evidence to back them up, there is little reason to just accept them as fact.

How about an example. If I look at the Early Church, before the existence of the canon of the New Testament, where is the faith found? What is taught, what is practiced, by whom and where? There are two places I can look to, very readily, contemporary and early historical writings and the existing religions of today who claim to be apostolic. If I read in a early contemporary writing that the Eucharist was believed to be the Blood and Body of Christ. And if I look at the existing religions today, East, West, Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic, Syrian, Chaldean, etc., which still hold this belief as central, there I have evidence that indicates the belief surrounding the Eucharist is so ancient it pre-dates the canon of the New Testament and so widespread that all apostolic churches, from Africa, to the Middle East to India, hold the same or very close doctrinal beliefs. All of which is centered on the Person of Jesus Christ, as there is no Eucharistic doctrines at all without Jesus' life, death and resurrection.

You should understand, and I can't emphasize enough, that catholic churches are not sola scriptura. The apostolic churches existed before the New Testament canon or writings. So I can look to the churches themselves (the same list as above) for evidence.

Also understand, the catholic use of "apostolic church" encompasses all the churches, ie, I live in Salt Lake City and in ancient times letters would have been written "to the church in Utah". Catholics (all, East, West, etc) still use "church" in that form today.

If you want to believe fine, but that is the only level it climbs to. The reason I was asking is you seem to be indicating you knew certain things as fact. I was curious how you thought you know. I see that you seem to be giving some things far to much credibility based on no good evidence. While LDS and some other groups don't like to rely on physical facts, they at least claim to know from spiritual sources they incorrectly interpret as coming directly from divine being.

Indeed, I accept the source of a divine being, Jesus Christ. :-)

[_subgenius]

So? It doesn't mean you have good evidence that the claims made by the Old Testament or New Testament are accurate. I could take any ancient text that make other claims. They have as much evidence going for them which is almost nothing.

Accurate in what way? I am not trying to be slippery, just some people expect a level of accuracy that is unreasonable. As an example, incongruities between the Gospels bring into questions accuracy of details. But what would be more suspicious, four accounts that are exactly the same, or four accounts that differ? If we are in a court of law, and I bring forward four witnesses who give an account that is generally the same, but the details are contradictory, is that more suspicious than four accounts given exactly the same? A friend of mine who is a court judge tells me that when multiple witnesses are so exact, as to have no discrepancies, there is suspicion of collusion.

So, let's reason a balance. Four accounts should be similar in major ways, but we should expect discrepancies in the details, not surprised or shocked by them.

Give a definition and we will see. Again the Old Testament and New Testament are claims made by people you never knew, and are made at later times then the events claimed, and generally not by the people who are supposed to be apart of the events. I am not saying they didn't happen as claimed, but since there is little evidence to back them up, there is little reason to just accept them as fact.

How about an example. If I look at the Early Church, before the existence of the canon of the New Testament, where is the faith found? What is taught, what is practiced, by whom and where? There are two places I can look to, very readily, contemporary and early historical writings and the existing religions of today who claim to be apostolic. If I read in a early contemporary writing that the Eucharist was believed to be the Blood and Body of Christ. And if I look at the existing religions today, East, West, Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic, Syrian, Chaldean, etc., which still hold this belief as central, there I have evidence that indicates the belief surrounding the Eucharist is so ancient it pre-dates the canon of the New Testament and so widespread that all apostolic churches, from Africa, to the Middle East to India, hold the same or very close doctrinal beliefs. All of which is centered on the Person of Jesus Christ, as there is no Eucharistic doctrines at all without Jesus' life, death and resurrection.

You should understand, and I can't emphasize enough, that catholic churches are not sola scriptura. The apostolic churches existed before the New Testament canon or writings. So I can look to the churches themselves (the same list as above) for evidence.

Also understand, the catholic use of "apostolic church" encompasses all the churches, ie, I live in Salt Lake City and in ancient times letters would have been written "to the church in Utah". Catholics (all, East, West, etc) still use "church" in that form today.

If you want to believe fine, but that is the only level it climbs to. The reason I was asking is you seem to be indicating you knew certain things as fact. I was curious how you thought you know. I see that you seem to be giving some things far to much credibility based on no good evidence. While LDS and some other groups don't like to rely on physical facts, they at least claim to know from spiritual sources they incorrectly interpret as coming directly from divine being.

Indeed, I accept the source of a divine being, Jesus Christ. :-)

[_Themis]

madeleine,

You have already answered my question about how you know. You don't really know but believe. This is what I suspected. None of the sources about Jesus are contemporary. All come after. It's one thing to look at Jesus being a real person. Quite another about the supernatural claims about him. They are not substantiated at all through any physical evidence I am aware of.

Indeed, I accept the source of a divine being, Jesus Christ. :-)

LOL This statement appears to be purposely unclear. Do you believe truth can be shown you by the Holy Ghost?

[_subgenius]

madeleine,

You have already answered my question about how you know. You don't really know but believe. This is what I suspected. None of the sources about Jesus are contemporary. All come after. It's one thing to look at Jesus being a real person. Quite another about the supernatural claims about him. They are not substantiated at all through any physical evidence I am aware of.

Indeed, I accept the source of a divine being, Jesus Christ. :-)

LOL This statement appears to be purposely unclear. Do you believe truth can be shown you by the Holy Ghost?

and now we see the desperation....as the ego of Themis frantically clings on to its own fabrication of what it surely must "know" to be true....

where should i send your new shirt?

[_Themis]

and now we see the desperation....as the ego of Themis frantically clings on to its own fabrication of what it surely must "know" to be true....

where should i send your new shirt?

Why not try some substance instead of insults. You really think you are doing anything here to expand discussion and understanding? Your behavior is that of an idiot. It's certainly not Christian behavior that you profess to be. It's why most people ignore most of what you say.