Bible verse by verse

[_Bazooka]

OUR LORD does exactly what is necessary for the good of everyone who chooses to place their faith and trust in HIM. People who choose to not accept Jesus as the Christ (God with US) are under the domaination of Satan. The Fall is the result of Satan making a choice to attempt to become GOD and mans desire to side with Satan. Adam and Eve would have lived eternally perfect if they had only not eaten of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan lied to them by saying that they would become as GOD as well --- possessing this knowledge.

And if Adam and Eve had lived eternally perfect you and I wouldn't be here, right?

[_subgenius]

And if Adam and Eve had lived eternally perfect you and I wouldn't be here, right?

...and if frogs had wings.....

[_Gunnar]

OUR LORD does exactly what is necessary for the good of everyone who chooses to place their faith and trust in HIM. People who choose to not accept Jesus as the Christ (God with US) are under the domaination of Satan. The Fall is the result of Satan making a choice to attempt to become GOD and mans desire to side with Satan. Adam and Eve would have lived eternally perfect if they had only not eaten of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan lied to them by saying that they would become as GOD as well --- possessing this knowledge.

And if Adam and Eve had lived eternally perfect you and I wouldn't be here, right?

Obviously LittleNipper doesn't understand the full implications and consequences of Adam and Eve remaining eternally perfect and immortal. Though there are many facets of LDS doctrine that are highly questionable and even absurd, at least Mormonism is one of the few religions that recognize that Adam and Eve could not have procreated had they remained "perfect" and immortal in the Garden of Eden--at least not for very long. Within surprisingly (especially to those, like LittleNipper, who are mathematically illiterate) few generations, very strict and prohibitive birth control restrictions would have to have been imposed.

Assuming a population growth rate of only 5% per year, which would be very easily achievable if everyone was immortal and remained eternally fertile and free to have all the children they wanted, it would take less than 2500 years for the total mass of humanity to exceed the total mass of the entire, known universe! Even a measly 2% birth rate would achieve that result in less than the 6,000 years that Young Earth Creationists absurdly believe is the actual age of the earth!

Thus, unless strictly observed birth control restrictions were imposed, humans would run out of standing room on the earth for human beings within a few dozen generations at the most, let alone consuming the entire mass of the universe just to make more humans. This is based on starting out with 2 people, and the average mass of humans through the years being about 50 kilos, with the universe containing about 200 billion galaxies (as astronomers say), with each containing about 200 billion suns (the same as the estimated number in our own galaxy), with an average mass equal to that of our own sun (about 2 x 10^30 kilos).

LittleNipper, do the math, and you will easily see the absurdity of immortal, eternally procreating people. It requires nothing more difficult than elementary, junior high school math. If you don't know how to do the math, I can easily show you.

[_LittleNipper]

And if Adam and Eve had lived eternally perfect you and I wouldn't be here, right?

Obviously LittleNipper doesn't understand the full implications and consequences of Adam and Eve remaining eternally perfect and immortal. Though there are many facets of LDS doctrine that are highly questionable and even absurd, at least Mormonism is one of the few religions that recognize that Adam and Eve could not have procreated had they remained "perfect" and immortal in the Garden of Eden--at least not for very long. Within surprisingly (especially to those, like LittleNipper, who are mathematically illiterate) few generations, very strict and prohibitive birth control restrictions would have to have been imposed.

Assuming a population growth rate of only 5% per year, which would be very easily achievable if everyone was immortal and remained eternally fertile and free to have all the children they wanted, it would take less than 2500 years for the total mass of humanity to exceed the total mass of the entire, known universe! Even a measly 2% birth rate would achieve that result in less than the 6,000 years that Young Earth Creationists absurdly believe is the actual age of the earth!

Thus, unless strictly observed birth control restrictions were imposed, humans would run out of standing room on the earth for human beings within a few dozen generations at the most, let alone consuming the entire mass of the universe just to make more humans. This is based on starting out with 2 people, and the average mass of humans through the years being about 50 kilos, with the universe containing about 200 billion galaxies (as astronomers say), with each containing about 200 billion suns (the same as the estimated number in our own galaxy), with an average mass equal to that of our own sun (about 2 x 10^30 kilos).

LittleNipper, do the math, and you will easily see the absurdity of immortal, eternally procreating people. It requires nothing more difficult than elementary, junior high school math. If you don't know how to do the math, I can easily show you.

Of course a sinless Adam and Eve could have procreated! Their children would have been born sinless. We have had the entire Universe to populate... Mormonism is shortsighted and exalts Satan and man while it limits God's abilities and power. And it rejects the very notion that the Entire Universe has been tainted by the Fall.

[Guest]

Joshua 3:1-17 Joshua and all of Israel traveled from Shittim to Jordon. Three days later the Israelite officers went through the camp, providing instructions: “When you see the Levitical priests carrying the Ark of the Covenant of the Lord your God, move out from your positions and follow them. Since you have never traveled this way before, they will guide you. Stay about a half mile behind them, keeping a clear distance between you and the Ark. Make sure you don’t come any closer.”
Joshua told the people, to clean themselves --- tomorrow the Lord will do great wonders. In the morning Joshua told the priests to Lift up the Ark of the Covenant and lead the people across the river. And so they started out and went ahead of the people.The Lord told Joshua, to command to the priests when they reach the banks of the Jordan River, take a few steps into the river and stop there.
Joshua told the Israelites to listen to what the Lord God says. Today they will know that the living God is among them. He will surely drive out the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites, and Jebusites before them. The Ark of the Covenant, belonging to the Lord of the entire earth, will lead them across the Jordan River! Joshua is to select 12 men from each tribe of Israel. The priests will carry the Ark of the Lord. As soon as their feet touch the water, the flow of water will be cut off upstream, and the river will stand up like a wall. The people left their camp to cross the Jordan, and the priests who were carrying the Ark of the Covenant went ahead of them. It was the harvest season, and the Jordan was flooding. But as soon as the feet of the priests who were carrying the Ark touched the water at the river’s edge, the water above that point began backing up a great distance away at a town called Adam, which is near Zarethan. And the water below that point flowed on to the Dead Sea until the riverbed was dry. Then all the people crossed over near the town of Jericho. The priests who were carrying the Ark of the Covenant stood on dry ground in the middle of the riverbed as the people passed by. They waited there until all of Israel had crossed the Jordan on dry ground.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


1 And Joshua riseth early in the morning, and they journey from Shittim, and come in unto the Jordan, he and all the sons of Israel, and they lodge there before they pass over.

2 And it cometh to pass, at the end of three days, that the authorities pass over into the midst of the camp,

3 and command the people, saying, `When ye see the ark of the covenant of Jehovah your God, and the priests, the Levites, bearing it, then ye journey from your place, and have gone after it;

4 only, a distance is between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure; ye do not come near unto it, so that ye know the way in which ye go, for ye have not passed over in the way heretofore.'

5 And Joshua saith unto the people, `Sanctify yourselves, for to-morrow doth Jehovah do in your midst wonders.'

6 And Joshua speaketh unto the priests, saying, `Take up the ark of the covenant, and pass over before the people;' and they take up the ark of the covenant, and go before the people.

7 And Jehovah saith unto Joshua, `This day I begin to make thee great in the eyes of all Israel, so that they know that as I was with Moses I am with thee;

8 and thou, thou dost command the priests bearing the ark of the covenant, saying, When ye come unto the extremity of the waters of the Jordan -- in the Jordan ye stand.'

9 And Joshua saith unto the sons of Israel, `Come nigh hither, and hear the words of Jehovah your God;

10 and Joshua saith, `By this ye know that the living God [is] in your midst, and He doth certainly dispossess from before you the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Hivite, and the Perizzite, and the Girgashite, and the Amorite, and the Jebusite:

11 lo, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth is passing over before you into Jordan;

12 and now, take for you twelve men out of the tribes of Israel, one man -- one man for a tribe;

13 and it hath been, at the resting of the soles of the feet of the priests bearing the ark of Jehovah, Lord of all the earth, in the waters of the Jordan, the waters of the Jordan are cut off -- the waters which are coming down from above -- and they stand -- one heap.'

14 And it cometh to pass, in the journeying of the people from their tents to pass over the Jordan, and of the priests bearing the ark of the covenant before the people,

15 and at those bearing the ark coming in unto the Jordan, and the feet of the priests bearing the ark have been dipped in the extremity of the waters (and the Jordan is full over all its banks all the days of harvest) --

16 that the waters stand; those coming down from above have risen -- one heap, very far above Adam the city, which [is] at the side of Zaretan; and those going down by the sea of the plain, the Salt Sea, have been completely cut off; and the people have passed through over-against Jericho;

17 and the priests bearing the ark of the covenant of Jehovah stand on dry ground in the midst of the Jordan -- established, and all Israel are passing over on dry ground till that all the nation hath completed to pass over the Jordan.

[_Bazooka]

Of course a sinless Adam and Eve could have procreated! Their children would have been born sinless. We have had the entire Universe to populate... Mormonism is shortsighted and exalts Satan and man while it limits God's abilities and power. And it rejects the very notion that the Entire Universe has been tainted by the Fall.

That's not what The Bible says.
In order for them to procreate they had to sin by eating of the forbidden fruit.
In fact, the way it reads, having children was a form of punishment for Eve.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Can you point to a scripture that supports your thinking that Adam and Eve could have procreated without sinning, thereby creating sinless offspring?

[_huckelberry]

Of course a sinless Adam and Eve could have procreated! Their children would have been born sinless. We have had the entire Universe to populate... Mormonism is shortsighted and exalts Satan and man while it limits God's abilities and power. And it rejects the very notion that the Entire Universe has been tainted by the Fall.

That's not what The Bible says.
In order for them to procreate they had to sin by eating of the forbidden fruit.
In fact, the way it reads, having children was a form of punishment for Eve.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Can you point to a scripture that supports your thinking that Adam and Eve could have procreated without sinning, thereby creating sinless offspring?

why would there be a scripture refuting an idea nobody held until Mormonism in 19th century United States?

There is no reason to imagine Nipper would think Adam needed to sin to have children. It is a ridiculous idea. It proposes that God could not make real humans without Satans assistance. It proposes that sin is a creative life giving act.

[Guest]

Bazooka,
My post may well contain a pretty fat pitch. After all in 2000 years with many people in many lands putting the standard Christian story pieces together in different ways, it would seem unlikely that nobody came up with a fertility through sin and disobedience towards God theory before 1920 something.

So, can you find an example? With or without a predecessor I bet you will find the idea to be Joseph's most original and clever creation.

////
ops that is 1820 something.

[_Gunnar]

Of course a sinless Adam and Eve could have procreated! Their children would have been born sinless. We have had the entire Universe to populate... Mormonism is shortsighted and exalts Satan and man while it limits God's abilities and power. And it rejects the very notion that the Entire Universe has been tainted by the Fall.

You completely fail to understand the main point of my argument. Would Adam and Eve's children also have been immortal as well as perfect? If so, even the entire known universe could not have contained all of their descendants within less than a few thousand years if they all continued to procreate without restraint. Within a relatively short time, the expanding mass of humanity would have to be expanding much faster than the speed of light in all directions. It is not a question of whether sinless people can have children, it is a question of whether immortal people can continue to have children beyond, at most, a few dozen generations. Sinless or not, death would very soon have to be introduced into the universe to make room for new generations to be born. Like it or not, it is mathematically impossible to have both immortality and continuing procreation for very long--no matter what assumptions one makes about the size of the universe.

In addition to that, I can think of nothing more outrageously ridiculous than the notion that the actions of two individuals on this world, which constitutes a tiny, infinitesimal portion of the entire known universe would somehow taint the entire universe! Nor can I accept the notion that God would even consider holding all generations of mankind responsible and under condemnation for something Adam and Eve did--especially for something so innocuous and admirable as desiring to obtain greater knowledge and understanding.

Also, consider this: what does it say about God's omnipotence and power if the entire universe he created could be so easily tainted? If Satan's temptation of Adam and Eve could accomplish that, then he is obviously much more powerful than God. Right?

There is no reason to imagine Nipper would think Adam needed to sin to have children. It is a ridiculous idea. It proposes that God could not make real humans without Satans assistance. It proposes that sin is a creative life giving act.

As I already explained to LittleNipper above, it is not a question of whether sinless parents can have children or not, but whether immortality and continuing procreation can both continue to exist for very long.

[_huckelberry]

Obviously LittleNipper doesn't understand the full implications and consequences of Adam and Eve remaining eternally perfect and immortal. Though there are many facets of LDS doctrine that are highly questionable and even absurd, at least Mormonism is one of the few religions that recognize that Adam and Eve could not have procreated had they remained "perfect" and immortal in the Garden of Eden--at least not for very long. Within surprisingly (especially to those, like LittleNipper, who are mathematically illiterate) few generations, very strict and prohibitive birth control restrictions would have to have been imposed.

I suppose so. So what is your point? I think the world need birth control now.

One might also consider the possibility that some descendant of Adam and Eve could find sin and death even if Adam and Eve avoided it.