Gunnar wrote:Obviously LittleNipper doesn't understand the full implications and consequences of Adam and Eve remaining eternally perfect and immortal. Though there are many facets of LDS doctrine that are highly questionable and even absurd, at least Mormonism is one of the few religions that recognize that Adam and Eve could not have procreated had they remained "perfect" and immortal in the Garden of Eden--at least not for very long. Within surprisingly (especially to those, like LittleNipper, who are mathematically illiterate) few generations, very strict and prohibitive birth control restrictions would have to have been imposed.
I suppose so. So what is your point? I think the world need birth control now.
One might also consider the possibility that some descendant of Adam and Eve could find sin and death even if Adam and Eve avoided it.
Very astute of you!
I don't have any objections to those two points, as long as it is agreed that if and when sin first occurred, it would be horribly unjust of God to assign guilt to all the descendants of that first sinner merely because of their ancestor's sin, just as it would be to assign guilt to all of Adam and Eve's descendants for their original sin.
And death would inevitably become unavoidable, whether or not anyone eventually sinned, unless virtually all procreation eventually came to a halt before death was no longer avoidable.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
The size of a perfect Universe could hold anybody ever born or anyone yet to be. You fail to even imagine the complexity of the strong possibility of multi dimensions or God's intervention. And yes, there is the notion that someone else might have sinned if Adam didn't, but your preoccupation that all perfect humanity would wish to do is procreate is really narrow minded. Also, how much matter actually fits in a Black Hole? And what if they had/have a purpose? You look at scientific rhetoric and imagine it to be fact but you limit God the Creator of the possible, as well as, the seemingly impossible...
LittleNipper wrote:You look at scientific rhetoric and imagine it to be fact but you limit God the Creator of the possible, as well as, the seemingly impossible...
I have no idea what this sentence means.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
LittleNipper wrote:Of course a sinless Adam and Eve could have procreated! Their children would have been born sinless. We have had the entire Universe to populate... Mormonism is shortsighted and exalts Satan and man while it limits God's abilities and power. And it rejects the very notion that the Entire Universe has been tainted by the Fall.
Yes! I absolutely reject the notion that the actions of two individuals on this world, which constitutes a tiny, infinitesimal portion of the entire known universe would somehow taint the entire universe! Nor can I accept the notion that God would even consider holding all generations of mankind responsible and under condemnation for something Adam and Eve did--especially for something so innocuous and admirable as desiring to obtain greater knowledge and understanding! What motivates you or anyone else to accept something as insanely stupid as that? I can't help but believe that a real god would be extremely offended that anyone would think him/her capable of such incredible and arbitrary unfairness and/or incompetence!
You think that we are the ones limiting God's abilities and power, but think seriously of these questions. If God's vast and perfect creation (the entire universe) could have been so easily tainted and corrupted by Satan's temptation of two individual humans on this infinitesimally tiny portion of it, how could that creation ever have been truly perfect to begin with, and what does that say about God's power? Doesn't that necessarily imply that Satan is much more powerful than God?
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
LittleNipper wrote:Of course a sinless Adam and Eve could have procreated! Their children would have been born sinless. We have had the entire Universe to populate... Mormonism is shortsighted and exalts Satan and man while it limits God's abilities and power. And it rejects the very notion that the Entire Universe has been tainted by the Fall.
Yes! I absolutely reject the notion that the actions of two individuals on this world, which constitutes a tiny, infinitesimal portion of the entire known universe would somehow taint the entire universe! Nor can I accept the notion that God would even consider holding all generations of mankind responsible and under condemnation for something Adam and Eve did--especially for something so innocuous and admirable as desiring to obtain greater knowledge and understanding! What motivates you or anyone else to accept something as insanely stupid as that? I can't help but believe that a real god would be extremely offended that anyone would think him/her capable of such incredible and arbitrary unfairness and/or incompetence!
You think that we are the ones limiting God's abilities and power, but think seriously of these questions. If God's vast and perfect creation (the entire universe) could have been so easily tainted and corrupted by Satan's temptation of two individual humans on this infinitesimally tiny portion of it, how could that creation ever have been truly perfect to begin with, and what does that say about God's power? Doesn't that necessarily imply that Satan is much more powerful than God?
Then you reject the Father, Christ Jesus the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. God has a plan and it involves everyone. The Universe was created by God for His purpose. God is separating those who truly love Him from those who are about their own business... God did not wish to be loved by robots. The fact is that Satan is unredeemable, as are the fallen angels. They saw God in all His glory and turned to their own devices to exult themselves. Adam and Eve were beguiled, and as such, God already had a plan to save such who love Him. Those who choose not to, face an eternity somewhere separated from the love of God to face a total absence of His love. This material Universe in but a stage and many people place far too much concern for it. But that is likely because they know not the spiritual.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LittleNipper wrote:The fact is that Satan is unredeemable, as are the fallen angels. They saw God in all His glory and turned to their own devices to exult themselves.
Which is an interesting point is it not? Faced with absolute knowledge of God, His power, His methods and principles, knowledge of His plan and what He is capable of, etc. Faced with all of that, Satan and a number of others still walked away believing they could do better. Why is God not impressive enough for everyone with a perfect knowledge of Him to want to spend eternity with Him?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
LittleNipper wrote:The fact is that Satan is unredeemable, as are the fallen angels. They saw God in all His glory and turned to their own devices to exult themselves.
Which is an interesting point is it not? Faced with absolute knowledge of God, His power, His methods and principles, knowledge of His plan and what He is capable of, etc. Faced with all of that, Satan and a number of others still walked away believing they could do better. Why is God not impressive enough for everyone with a perfect knowledge of Him to want to spend eternity with Him?
Excellent questions!
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
LittleNipper wrote:Then you reject the Father, Christ Jesus the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. God has a plan and it involves everyone. The Universe was created by God for His purpose. God is separating those who truly love Him from those who are about their own business... God did not wish to be loved by robots. The fact is that Satan is unredeemable, as are the fallen angels. They saw God in all His glory and turned to their own devices to exult themselves. Adam and Eve were beguiled, and as such God already had a plan to save such who love Him. Those who will not face an eternity somewhere separated from the love of God to face a total absence of love. This material Universe in but a stage and many people place far too much concern for it. But that is likely because they know not the spiritual.
There is nothing inherently wrong with or sinful about rejecting highly improbable nonsense that even its proponents admit is not and cannot be supported by verifiable, objective evidence. As I have pointed out before, the Idea that a wise and beneficent God cannot forgive anyone for any sins, however repentant they may be, unless someone who is totally guiltless is cruelly tortured to death to atone for everyone else's sins, is not only silly, but positively obscene!
And you did not even try to answer these questions:
Gunnar wrote:You think that we are the ones limiting God's abilities and power, but think seriously of these questions. If God's vast and perfect creation (the entire universe) could have been so easily tainted and corrupted by Satan's temptation of two individual humans on this infinitesimally tiny portion of it, how could that creation ever have been truly perfect to begin with, and what does that say about God's power? Doesn't that necessarily imply that Satan is much more powerful than God?
Last edited by Guest on Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Here is something else for LittleNipper to answer: What does God really care about the most: that we love and worship him, or that we love each other and try to help each other? Is God a totally selfish and narcissistic creature whose main concern is how many believe in, adore and worship him? Whom would God respect and revere more? A non-Christian or atheist who consistently deals honestly and charitably with others, or a Christian who expresses love and adoration for God, but often cheats others whenever he can get away with it, and seldom lifts a finger to help others less fortunate than himself?
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Gunnar wrote:Here is something else for LittleNipper to answer: What does God really care about the most: that we love and worship him, or that we love each other and try to help each other?
how are you proposing that these two concepts mutually exclusive to God? by what measure are you proposing that God has a "hierarchy" of caring? - i mean we can argue that God cares about this and abhors that...but how do you propose that God cares "more"?, any examples to justify your thought?
Gunnar wrote:Is God a totally selfish and narcissistic creature whose main concern is how many believe in, adore and worship him? Whom would God respect and revere more? A non-Christian or atheist who consistently deals honestly and charitably with others, or a Christian who expresses love and adoration for God, but often cheats others whenever he can get away with it, and seldom lifts a finger to help others less fortunate than himself?
ironically is not loving God bound to loving each other?
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
