Bible verse by verse

[_LittleNipper]

Nipper, is lying for the Lord a sin?

You obviously don't know what constitutes a lie.

[_Bazooka]

Let me see you tell that to a psychiatrist and tell me where that gets you. Only a real being can accomplish real things. Imaginary beings are a figment of one's imagination and are incapable of anything. If your "imaginary" friend performs tasks for you then he is not imaginary. My dad would say that you are full of soup (which was a polite 1950's way of implying that you are so full of something but it isn't the truth). If you are trying to get some clarification, then by all means by forthright and ask for some; however, to say that you have an "imaginary friend," only demonstrates how low you are willing to stoop to confuse an issue and belittle the beliefs of others. You pray to your "imaginary" friend for wisdom and I'll read God's instruction book and pray for wisdom. Let's see who gets what.

We will both get the same.
You have yet to provide something explicit that we can use to differentiate between the benefits of worshipping an imaginary friend or your God.
The fact is, you make God in your own image. He is, without doubt, your "imaginary friend" to whom you allocate certain things. You haven't seen Him, you haven't heard Him, you haven't witnessed Him have an influence in this life above and beyond the influence an imaginary friend can have. You just choose to believe He is real, just like the person with an imaginary friend.

Of course, if a real being can accomplish real things (as opposed to things we imagine may happen in some future life or some things that aren't clearly God's doing) and God is real, then you can give us a specific and clear example of something 'real' that your God has done. Which is what I have been asking for a while now, to which you've been responding with "My imaginary friend (God) is more valid than your imaginary friend, because I say so".

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Nipper, is lying for the Lord a sin?

You obviously don't know what constitutes a lie.

Then by all means enlighten me.

Is lying for the Lord a sin?

Would you say that Jack T. Chick lies for the Lord?

[Guest]

Then you cannot worship a Creator who judges sin. You likely find that sending the likes of "Hitler" to hell repulsive, or do YOU simply pick and choose candidates to feel sorry for? God knows your intentions, and I imagine that that thought haunts and scares you. But the reality is that either one will spend an eternity with God or an eternity without God. How long someone lives on this planet has very little to offer when one measures such against ------------- eternity. And if someone chooses to live without God throughout this life, that one is simply digging for himself a deeper and deeper pit for himself in hell...

As EA already pointed out, that response is so typical of religious fundamentalists--especially, but not just Christian ones. When they are backed into a corner defending a position that they know is not and can not be supported by any kind of verifiable evidence and sound reason, they try to frighten honest skeptics into believing, despite the utter lack of supporting evidence, and even in the face of the most incontrovertible contrary evidence, by threatening them with hellfire and eternal damnation and torment merely for not believing. Argument by intimidation is the most unreasonable, inherently dishonest and morally bankrupt of all methods of persuasion. When you have no remaining recourse but to employ that tactic, you have already irretrievably lost the argument, whether you have the wit to realize it or not!

Who is the one whose convictions are really motivated by fear? I, who sincerely doubt the existence of the Christian concept of God (and any other God concept I have so far encountered) for lack of compelling evidence, or you, who dare not doubt your religious convictions for fear of the very hellfire and damnation you threaten others with?

[_Gunnar]

LittleNipper, can you please try to answer this question for me that I asked before. Why should the Hivites' proximity to the Israelites have anything to do with whether the Israelites should be willing to accept a treaty of peace with them? Were the Israelites in the Old Testament forbidden to "love their neighbors as themselves" as preached by Christ in the New Testament?

[_LittleNipper]

Then you cannot worship a Creator who judges sin. You likely find that sending the likes of "Hitler" to hell repulsive, or do YOU simply pick and choose candidates to feel sorry for? God knows your intentions, and I imagine that that thought haunts and scares you. But the reality is that either one will spend an eternity with God or an eternity without God. How long someone lives on this planet has very little to offer when one measures such against ------------- eternity. And if someone chooses to live without God throughout this life, that one is simply digging for himself a deeper and deeper pit for himself in hell...

As EA already pointed out, that response is so typical of religious fundamentalists--especially, but not just Christian ones. When they are backed into a corner defending a position that they know is not and can not be supported by any kind of verifiable evidence and sound reason, they try to frighten honest skeptics into believing, despite the utter lack of supporting evidence, and even in the face of the most incontrovertible contrary evidence, by threatening them with hellfire and eternal damnation and torment merely for not believing. Argument by intimidation is the most unreasonable, inherently dishonest and morally bankrupt of all methods of persuasion. When you have no remaining recourse but to employ that tactic, you have already irretrievably lost the argument, whether you have the wit to realize it or not!

Who is the one whose convictions are really motivated by fear? I, who sincerely doubt the existence of the Christian concept of God (and any other God concept I have so far encountered) for lack of compelling evidence, or you, who dare not doubt your religious convictions for fear of the very hellfire and damnation you threaten others with?

Can you create life out of inert materials? If not why would you imagine that "nature" has that ability given enough time? And how much time is enough and why? Is not a belief system involved in the conceived notion that life simply had to happened? I can test God. I can place my trust that He will guide me. You have that ability too. It is called by some testing God. But I do believe that if one really wants God to prove himself, all one needs to do is ask God for proof and it will come. There is the odd possibility that you were guided by God to a Mormon Discussion site to interact with a Christian who holds to the inerrancy of the Bible. That to me seems rather unlikely, but here I am. As long as you are fair and honestly seeking after God, God will work on your unbelief and grow your faith. But if you are not interested and only joking around, God will be the last thing you will find...

[_LittleNipper]

LittleNipper, can you please try to answer this question for me that I asked before. Why should the Hivites' proximity to the Israelites have anything to do with whether the Israelites should be willing to accept a treaty of peace with them? Were the Israelites in the Old Testament forbidden to "love their neighbors as themselves" as preached by Christ in the New Testament?

God clearly told the Israelites that the inhabitants who lived in the Promised Land had done terrible things and because of this grievous sin, these people were doomed. They were being expelled from the land. These people were not neighbors, they were squatters. They did not deserve the land they came to occupy. A neighbor is someone that lives around you and not someone who moves into your home while your out of town.

[_LittleNipper]

Joshua 12:1-24 Here is the list of the kings on the EAST side of the Jordan River whose cities were destroyed by the Israelis: (The area involved stretched all the way from the valley of the Arnon River to Mount Hermon, including the cities of the eastern desert.)

King Sihon of the Amorites, who lived in Heshbon. His kingdom extended from Aroer, on the edge of the Arnon Valley, and from the middle of the valley of the Arnon River to the Jabbok River, which is the boundary of the Ammonites. This includes half of the present area of Gilead, which lies north of the Jabbok River. Sihon also controlled the Jordan River Valley as far north as the western shores of the Lake of Galilee; and as far south as the Dead Sea and the slopes of Mount Pisgah.

King Og of Bashan, the last of the Rephaim, who lived at Ashtaroth and Edrei ruled a territory stretching from Mount Hermon in the north to Salecah on Mount Bashan in the east, and on the west, extending to the boundary of the kingdoms of Geshur and Maacah. His kingdom also stretched south to include the northern half of Gilead where the boundary touched the border of the kingdom of Sihon, king of Heshbon. Moses and the people of Israel had destroyed these people, and Moses gave the land to the tribes of Reuben and the half-tribe of Manasseh.

Here is a list of the kings destroyed by Joshua and the armies of Israel on the WEST side of the Jordan. (This land which lay between Baal-gad in the valley of Lebanon and Mount Halak, west of Mount Seir, was allotted by Joshua to the other tribes of Israel. The area included the hill country, the lowlands, the Arabah, the mountain slopes, the Judean Desert, and the Negeb. The people there were the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites): the king of Jericho; the king of A.I., near Bethel; the king of Jerusalem; the king of Hebron; the king of Jarmuth; the king of Lachish; the king of Eglon; the king of Gezer; the king of Debir; the king of Geder; the king of Hormah; the king of Arad; the king of Libnah; the king of Adullam; the king of Makkedah; the king of Bethel; the king of Tappuah; the king of Hepher; the king of Aphek; the king of Lasharon; the king of Madon; the king of Hazor; the king of Shimron-meron; the king of Achshaph; the king of Taanach; the king of Megiddo; the king of Kedesh; the king of Jokneam, in Carmel; the king of Dor in the city of Naphathdor; the king of Goiim in Gilgal; the king of Tirzah. 31 kings and their cities were destroyed.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


1 And these [are] kings of the land whom the sons of Israel have smitten, and possess their land, beyond the Jordan, at the sun-rising, from the brook Arnon unto mount Hermon, and all the plain eastward.

2 Sihon, king of the Amorite, who is dwelling in Heshbon, ruling from Aroer which [is] on the border of the brook Arnon, and the middle of the brook, and half of Gilead, and unto Jabok the brook, the border of the Bene-Ammon;

3 And the plain unto the sea of Chinneroth eastward, and unto the sea of the plain (the salt sea) eastward, the way to Beth-Jeshimoth, and from the south under the springs of Pisgah.

4 And the border of Og king of Bashan (of the remnant of the Rephaim), who is dwelling in Ashtaroth and in Edrei,

5 and ruling in mount Hermon, and in Salcah, and in all Bashan, unto the border of the Geshurite, and the Maachathite, and the half of Gilead, the border of Sihon king of Heshbon.

6 Moses, servant of Jehovah, and the sons of Israel have smitten them, and Moses, servant of Jehovah, giveth it -- a possession to the Reubenite, and to the Gadite, and to the half of the tribe of Manasseh.

7 And these [are] kings of the land whom Joshua and the sons of Israel have smitten beyond the Jordan westward, from Baal-Gad, in the valley of Lebanon, and unto the mount of Halak, which is going up to Seir; and Joshua giveth it to the tribes of Israel -- a possession according to their divisions;

8 in the hill-country, and in the low country, and in the plain, and in the springs, and in the wilderness, and in the south; the Hittite, the Amorite, and the Canaanite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:

9 The king of Jericho, one; The king of A.I., which [is] beside Bethel, one;

10 The king of Jerusalem, one; The king of Hebron, one;

11 The king of Jarmuth, one; The king of Lachish, one;

12 The king of Eglon, one; The king of Gezer, one;

13 The king of Debir, one; The king of Geder, one;

14 The king of Hormah, one; The king of Arad, one;

15 The king of Libnah, one; The king of Adullam, one;

16 The king of Mekkedah, one; The king of Beth-El, one;

17 The king of Tappuah, one; The king of Hepher, one;

18 The king of Aphek, one; The king of Lasharon, one;

19 The king of Madon, one; The king of Hazor, one;

20 The king of Shimron-Meron, one; The king of Achshaph, one;

21 The king of Taanach, one; The king of Megiddo, one;

22 The king of Kedesh, one; The king of Jokneam of Carmel, one;

23 The king of Dor, at the elevation of Dor, one; The king of the Goyim of Gilgal, one;

24 The king of Tirzah, one; all the kings [are] thirty and one.

[_Gunnar]

God clearly told the Israelites that the inhabitants who lived in the Promised Land had done terrible things and because of this grievous sin, these people were doomed. They were being expelled from the land. These people were not neighbors, they were squatters. They did not deserve the land they came to occupy. A neighbor is someone that lives around you and not someone who moves into your home while your out of town.

So, what could the previous inhabitants of the "Promised Land" possibly have done that was even worse than the atrocities committed by the Israelites themselves when they moved in? I see not the slightest justification for concluding that "God clearly told the Israelites. . ." anything whatsoever. It is almost infinitely more probable that the writers of the Old Testament made up the claim that God promised them that land and commanded the Israelites to do what they did to possess it, after the fact, in order to justify and salve their consciences for the atrocities that they or their ancestors had already committed. In this respect, they were not significantly different from any of their contemporary tribes and civilizations in their region of the world that rose and fell and conquered and ravaged each other for thousands of years.

[_LittleNipper]

God clearly told the Israelites that the inhabitants who lived in the Promised Land had done terrible things and because of this grievous sin, these people were doomed. They were being expelled from the land. These people were not neighbors, they were squatters. They did not deserve the land they came to occupy. A neighbor is someone that lives around you and not someone who moves into your home while your out of town.

So, what could the previous inhabitants of the "Promised Land" possibly have done that was even worse than the atrocities committed by the Israelites themselves when they moved in? I see not the slightest justification for concluding that "God clearly told the Israelites. . ." anything whatsoever. It is almost infinitely more probable that the writers of the Old Testament made up the claim that God promised them that land and commanded the Israelites to do what they did to possess it, after the fact, in order to justify and salve their consciences for the atrocities that they or their ancestors had already committed. In this respect, they were not significantly different from any of their contemporary tribes and civilizations in their region of the world that rose and fell and conquered and ravaged each other for thousands of years.

First, the Promised Land belonged to God before the Canaanites established temporary residency there. It had always been his plan to give this land to the descendants of Abraham: "In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here" (Gen 15:16a). The Lord did not take from the Canaanites that which was "theirs"—he reclaimed that which was his according to his foreordained purposes.

Second, the Canaanites lived in wicked rebellion against the will and purposes of God. The Lord had predicted that Abraham's descendants would claim the land when "the sin of the Amorites" reached its "full measure" (Gen 15:16b). This "full measure" of sin was attained by the Canaanites in the generation leading to the Jewish conquest.

Moses warned his people about these sins they would encounter upon entering the Promised Land: "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead" (Deut 18:10-11). He stated that anyone who practices such sins is "detestable to the Lord," and explained that "because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you" (v. 12). Those who were conquered by Joshua and his armies were not innocent victims, but wicked sinners who received the judgment their transgressions had warranted.

Third, the blood retribution practiced by ancient tribal culture required the Jewish armies to destroy not only the soldiers of their enemies, but their families as well. So long as one member of a family remained, that person was bound by cultural law to attempt retribution against the enemies of his people. Such unrest and hostility would have persisted throughout the nation's history, with no possibility of peace in the land. What appears to be genocide was actually the way wars were typically prosecuted.

Fourth, in these formative early years of Israel's history it was imperative that the people be kept from the influence of sinners without or within their nation. The holy God who gave them their land would uproot them from it if they rebelled against him (Deut 28:63-68). This warning came to pass centuries later at the hands of Assyria and then Babylon, and ultimately in the national destruction wrought by Rome in the first century of the Christian era.