Bazooka wrote:How do you determine what is 'evil'?
I do not have some litmus test or and special ability to divine all situations. I would not claim to be able to go about determining evil. If I try to determine all situations I find a lot are ambiguous.
I think we all know basic pointers to evils characteristics. Evil is cynical disregard for community and life. Evil is taking advantage of a vulnerable person and saying, you fool.
But how can you be a soldier in a fight where the enemy is unknown? Also what we perceive as sin or evil today may not be perceived as evil yesterday or tomorrow, which means we are making those decisions rather than a God.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
huckelberry wrote:I do not have some litmus test or and special ability to divine all situations. I would not claim to be able to go about determining evil. If I try to determine all situations I find a lot are ambiguous.
I think we all know basic pointers to evils characteristics. Evil is cynical disregard for community and life. Evil is taking advantage of a vulnerable person and saying, you fool.
But how can you be a soldier in a fight where the enemy is unknown? Also what we perceive as sin or evil today may not be perceived as evil yesterday or tomorrow, which means we are making those decisions rather than a God.
Bazooka, I stated exactly what the enemy is.It is not some people nor is it infractions of some uncertain bunch of rules.
"we are making the rules"
Of course we are. Who else writes United States penal codes, or your local laws?
You be a soldier by first living with courage and generosity in the face of both good times and bad..
Bazooka wrote:But how can you be a soldier in a fight where the enemy is unknown?
the enemy is not unknown - otherwise their would be no "fight"....but, again, the enemy is known.
Bazooka wrote:Also what we perceive as sin or evil today may not be perceived as evil yesterday or tomorrow, which means we are making those decisions rather than a God.
If you are correct here (which you are not) then the choice to commit a "sin" would be the issue would it not? Nevertheless, if you dismiss God then you cannot admit good and/or evil at any level...at best you could only argue that there is legal and illegal.
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams If you're not upsetting idiots, you might be an idiot. - Ted Nugent
Joshua 20:1-9 The Lord tells Joshua to have the people of Israel designate Cities of Refuge, as God instructed Moses. If a man is guilty of killing someone unintentionally, he can run to one of these cities and be protected from the relatives of the victim, who may try to kill him in revenge. When the innocent killer reaches any of these cities, he will meet with the city council and explain what happened, and they must let him come in and must give him a place to live among them. If a relative of the dead man comes for revenge, the innocent slayer must not be released to him for the death was accidental. The man who caused the accidental death must stay in that city until he has been tried by the judges and found innocent, and must remain there until the death of the High Priest who was in office at the time of the accident. Then he will be free to return to his own city and home.
The cities chosen as Refuge were Kedesh of Galilee in the hill country of the Naphtali tribe; Shechem, in the hill country of the Ephraim tribe; and Kiriath-arba (also known as Hebron) in the hill country of tribe of Judah. The Lord also instructed that three cities be set aside for this purpose on the east side of the Jordan River, across from Jericho. These being Bezer, in the wilderness of the land of the tribe of Reuben; Ramoth of Gilead, in the territory of the tribe of Gad; and Golan of Bashan, in the land of the tribe of Manasseh. These Cities of Refuge were equally accessible to foreigners living in Israel as well as for the Israelites themselves.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And Jehovah speaketh unto Joshua, saying,
2 `Speak unto the sons of Israel, saying, Give for you cities of refuge, as I have spoken unto you by the hand of Moses,
3 for the fleeing thither of a man-slayer smiting life inadvertently, without knowledge; and they have been to you for a refuge from the redeemer of blood.
4 `When [one] hath fled unto one of these cities, and hath stood [at] the opening of the gate of the city, and hath spoken in the ears of the elders of that city his matter, then they have gathered him into the city unto them, and have given to him a place, and he hath dwelt with them.
5 `And when the redeemer of blood doth pursue after him, then they do not shut up the man-slayer into his hand, for without knowledge he hath smitten his neighbour, and is not hating him hitherto;
6 and he hath dwelt in that city till his standing before the company for judgment, till the death of the chief priest who is in those days -- then doth the man-slayer turn back and hath come unto his city, and unto his house, unto the city whence he fled.'
7 And they sanctify Kedesh in Galilee, in the hill-country of Naphtali, and Shechem in the hill-country of Ephraim, and Kirjath-Arba (it [is] Hebron), in the hill-country of Judah;
8 and beyond the Jordan, [at] Jericho eastward, they have given Bezer in the wilderness, in the plain, out of the tribe of Reuben, and Ramoth in Gilead out of the tribe of Gad, and Golan in Bashan out of the tribe of Manasseh.
9 These have been cities of meeting for all the sons of Israel, and for a sojourner who is sojourning in their midst, for the fleeing thither of any one smiting life inadvertently, and he doth not die by the hand of the redeemer of blood till his standing before the company.
Joshua 21:1-45 The leaders of the tribe of Levi came to Shiloh to talk with Eleazar the priest and with Joshua and the leaders of the other tribes. The Lord instructed Moses to give cities to theLevites for homes, and pastureland for their cattle. They were given some of the recently conquered cities with their pasturelands. 13 of these cities had been assigned originally to the tribes of Judah, Simeon, and Benjamin. These were given to some of the priests of the Kohath group (of the tribe of Levi, descendants of Aaron). The other families of the Kohath group were given ten cities from the territories of Ephraim, Dan, and the half-tribe of Manasseh. Gershon received thirteen cities, selected by sacred lot in the area of Bashan. These cities were given by the tribes of Issachar, Asher, Naphtali, and the half-tribe of Manasseh. Merari division received twelve cities from the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and Zebulun. This was in accord to Moses, and the cities and pasturelands were assigned by the casting of lots. First to receive their assignment were the priests—the descendants of Aaron, who was a member of the Kohath division of the Levites. The tribes of Judah and Simeon gave them the nine cities listed below, with their surrounding pasturelands: Hebron, in the Judean hills, as a City of Refuge—it was also called Kiriath-arba (Arba was the father of Anak)—hoever fields beyond the city and the surrounding villages were given to Caleb, the son of Jephunneh; Libnah, Jattir, Eshtemoa, Holon, Debir, Ain, Juttah, and Beth-shemesh.
The tribe of Benjamin gave them Gibeon, Gaba, Anathoth, and Almon --- four cities with their pasturelands: . In all, 13 cities were given to the priests—the descendants of Aaron. The other families of the Kohath division received four cities and pasturelands from the tribe of Ephraim: Shechem (a City of Refuge), Gezer, Kibza-im, and Beth-horon.
The following four cities and pasturelands were given by the tribe of Dan: Elteke, Gibbethon, Aijalon, and Gath-rimmon.
The half-tribe of Manasseh gave the cities of Taanach and Gath-rimmon with their surrounding pasturelands.
The total number of cities and pasturelands given to the remainder of the Kohath division was ten.
The descendants of Gershon, another family of the Levites, received two cities and pasturelands from the half-tribe of Manasseh: Golan, in Bashan (a City of Refuge), and Beeshterah. The tribe of Issachar gave four cities: Kishion, Daberath, Jarmuth, and Engannim. The tribe of Asher gave four cities and pasturelands: Mishal, Abdon, Helkath, and Rehob. The tribe of Naphtali gave: Kedesh, in Galilee (a City of Refuge), Hammoth-dor, and Kartan -----------------13 cities with their pasturelands in all.
The remainder of the Levites—the Merari family group—were given four cities by the tribe of Zebulun: Jokneam, Kartah, Dimnah, and Nahalal. Reuben gave them: Bezer, Jahaz, Kedemoth, and Mephaath. Gad gave them four cities with pasturelands: Ramoth (a City of Refuge), Mahanaim, Heshbon, and Jazer ---------------12 cities in all.
The total number of cities and pasturelands given to the Levites came to 48. Every good thing the Lord had promised them came true.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And the heads of the fathers of the Levites draw nigh unto Eleazar the priest, and unto Joshua son of Nun, and unto the heads of the fathers of the tribes of the sons of Israel,
2 and they speak unto them in Shiloh, in the land of Canaan, saying, `Jehovah commanded by the hand of Moses to give to us cities to dwell in, and their suburbs for our cattle.'
3 And the sons of Israel give to the Levites, out of their inheritance, at the command of Jehovah, these cities and their suburbs:
4 And the lot goeth out for the families of the Kohathite, and there are for the sons of Aaron the priest (of the Levites), out of the tribe of Judah, and out of the tribe of Simeon, and out of the tribe of Benjamin, by lot thirteen cities,
5 and for the sons of Kohath who are left, out of the families of the tribe of Ephraim, and out of the tribe of Dan, and out of the half of the tribe of Manasseh, by lot ten cities:
6 And for the sons of Gershon [are], out of the families of the tribe of Issachar, and out of the tribe of Asher, and out of the tribe of Naphtali, and out of the half tribe of Manasseh in Bashan, by lot, thirteen cities.
7 For the sons of Merari, for their families, [are], out of the tribe of Reuben, and out of the tribe of Gad, and out of the tribe of Zebulun, twelve cities.
8 And the sons of Israel give to the Levites these cities and their suburbs, as Jehovah commanded by the hand of Moses, by lot.
9 And they give out of the tribe of the sons of Judah, and out of the tribe of the sons of Simeon, these cities which are called by name;
10 and they are for the sons of Aaron, of the families of the Kohathite, of the sons of Levi, for theirs hath been the first lot;
11 and they give to them the city of Arba father of Anak (it [is] Hebron), in the hill-country of Judah, and its suburbs round about it;
12 and the field of the city and its villages they have given to Caleb son of Jephunneh for his possession.
13 And to the sons of Aaron the priest they have given the city of refuge [for] the man-slayer, Hebron and its suburbs, and Libnah and its suburbs,
14 and Jattir and its suburbs, and Eshtemoa and its suburbs,
15 and Holon and its suburbs, and Debir and its suburbs,
16 and Ain and its suburbs, and Juttah and its suburbs, Beth-Shemesh and its suburbs; nine cities out of these two tribes.
17 And out of the tribe of Benjamin, Gibeon and its suburbs, Geba and its suburbs,
18 Anathoth and its suburbs, and Almon and its suburbs -- four cities;
19 all the cities of the sons of Aaron the priests, [are] thirteen cities and their suburbs.
20 And for the families of the sons of Kohath, the Levites, who are left of the sons of Kohath, even the cities of their lot are of the tribe of Ephraim;
21 and they give to them the city of refuge [for] the man-slayer, Shechem and its suburbs, in the hill-country of Ephraim, and Gezer and its suburbs,
22 and Kibzaim and its suburbs, and Beth-Horon and its suburbs -- four cities.
23 And out of the tribe of Dan, Eltekeh and its suburbs, Gibbethon and its suburbs,
24 Aijalon and its suburbs, Gath-Rimmon and its suburbs -- four cities.
25 And out of the half of the tribe of Manasseh, Taanach and its suburbs, and Gath-Rimmon and its suburbs -- two cities;
26 all the cities [are] ten and their suburbs, for the families of the sons of Kohath who are left.
27 And for the sons of Gershon, of the families of the Levites, out of the half of the tribe of Manasseh, the city of refuge [for] the man-slayer, Golan in Bashan and its suburbs, and Beeshterah and its suburbs -- two cities.
28 And out of the tribe of Issachar, Kishon and its suburbs, Dabarath and its suburbs,
29 Jarmuth and its suburbs, En-Gannim and its suburbs -- four cities.
30 And out of the tribe of Asher, Mishal and its suburbs, Abdon and its suburbs,
31 Helkath and its suburbs, and Rehob and its suburbs -- four cities.
32 And out of the tribe of Naphtali, the city of refuge [for] the man-slayer, Kedesh in Galilee and its suburbs, and Hammoth-Dor and its suburbs, and Kartan and its suburbs -- three cities;
33 all the cities of the Gershonite, for their families, [are] thirteen cities and their suburbs.
34 And for the families of the sons of Merari, the Levites, who are left, [are,] out of the tribe of Zebulun, Jokneam and its suburbs, Kartah and its suburbs,
35 Dimnah and its suburbs, Nahalal and its suburbs -- four cities.
36 And out of the tribe of Reuben, Bezer and its suburbs, and Jahazah and its suburbs,
37 Kedemoth and its suburbs, and Mephaath and its suburbs -- four cities.
38 And out of the tribe of Gad, the city of refuge [for] the man-slayer, Ramoth in Gilead and its suburbs, and Mahanaim and its suburbs,
39 Heshbon and its suburbs, Jazer and its suburbs -- [in] all four cities.
40 All the cities for the sons of Merari, for their families, who are left of the families of the Levites -- their lot is twelve cities.
41 All the cities of the Levites in the midst of the possession of the sons of Israel [are] forty and eight cities, and their suburbs.
42 These cities are each city and its suburbs round about it; so to all these cities.
43 And Jehovah giveth to Israel the whole of the land which He hath sworn to give to their fathers, and they possess it, and dwell in it;
44 and Jehovah giveth rest to them round about, according to all that which He hath sworn to their fathers, and there hath not stood a man in their presence of all their enemies, the whole of their enemies hath Jehovah given into their hand;
45 there hath not fallen a thing of all the good thing which Jehovah spake unto the house of Israel -- the whole hath come.
Bazooka wrote:How do you determine what is 'evil'?
How do you determine what is good?
You answer my question, then I will answer yours.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
Joshua 22:1-34 Joshua calls together the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh and tells them that they have done as Moses commanded. They have not deserted the other tribes. Now the Lord has given the other tribes rest, as he promised. They may now go back home to the land that Moses gave as your possession on the east side of the Jordan River. But they be very careful to obey all the commands and the instructions that Moses gave. They must love God, walk in all his ways, obey his commands, hold firmly to him, and serve him with all heart and soul. Joshua blessed them and sent them home.
Moses had given the land of Bashan, east of the Jordan River, to the half-tribe of Manasseh. The other half of the tribe was given land west of the Jordan. They return home with the great wealth taken from the enemies—the vast herds of livestock, the silver, gold, bronze, and iron, and the large supply of clothing. So the men of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh left the rest of Israel at Shiloh in the land of Canaan. They started back to their own land of Gilead, the territory that belonged to them according to the Lord’s command through Moses. While still in Canaan, they came to a place called Geliloth near the Jordan River, the men of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh stopped to build a large and imposing altar.
The rest of Israel heard that the people of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh had built what they thought was a sacrificial alter at Geliloth at the edge of the land of Canaan, on the west side of the Jordan River. So the whole community of Israel gathered at Shiloh and prepared to go to war against them. First, they sent a delegation led by Phinehas son of Eleazar, the priest, to talk with the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh. In this delegation were ten leaders of Israel, one from each of the ten tribes, and each the head of his family within the clans of Israel.
When they arrived in the land of Gilead, they said to the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh, that the whole community of the Lord demands to know why they are betraying the God of Israel. How could they turn away from the Lord and build a monument to themselves in rebellion against God? Was the sin at Peor not enough? If they need the altar because the land they possess is defiled, it would be right to come where the Tabernacle of the Lord is located, and share the land. They are told not to rebel against the Lord or against the rest of Israel by building an altar other than the one true altar of God. They are reminded of Achan, a member of the clan of Zerah, who sinned by stealing the things set apart for the Lord. He was not the only one who died because of his sin.
The people of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh answered the heads of the clans of Israel that they decided to build this monument, not for burnt offerings or sacrifices, but as a memorial to remind the descendants on both side of the Jordan that they all have the right to worship the Lord at his sanctuary with burnt offerings, sacrifices, and peace offerings. The descendants on one side of the Jordan will not be able to say, ‘You have no claim to the Lord. ‘Look at this copy of the Lord’s altar that our ancestors made. It is not for burnt offerings or sacrifices; it is a reminder of the relationship both of us have with the Lord.’ Only the altar of the Lord God that stands in front of the Tabernacle may be used for sacrificial purpose.
When Phinehas the priest and the leaders of the community—the heads of the clans of Israel—heard this from the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and the half-tribe of Manasseh, they were satisfied. Phinehas, replied to them, “Today we know the Lord is among us because you have not committed this treachery against the Lord as we thought. Instead, you have rescued Israel from being destroyed by the hand of the Lord.” The priest, and the other leaders left the tribes of Reuben and Gad in Gilead and returned to the land of Canaan to inform the Israelites. All the Israelites were satisfied and praised God and spoke no more of war against Reuben and Gad. The tribe Reuben and Gad named the altar “Witness."
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 Then Joshua calleth for the Reubenite, and for the Gadite, and for the half of the tribe of Manasseh,
2 and saith unto them, `Ye -- ye have kept the whole of that which Moses, servant of Jehovah, commanded you, and ye hearken to my voice, to all that I have commanded you;
3 ye have not left your brethren these many days unto this day, and have kept the charge -- the command of Jehovah your God.
4 `And, now, Jehovah your God hath given rest to your brethren, as He spake to them; and now, turn ye, and go for yourselves to your tents, unto the land of your possession, which Moses, servant of Jehovah, hath given to you beyond the Jordan.
5 Only, be very watchful to do the command and the law which Moses, servant of Jehovah, commanded you, to love Jehovah your God, and to walk in all His ways, and to keep His commands, and to cleave to Him, and to serve Him, with all your heart, and with all your soul.'
6 And Joshua blesseth them, and sendeth them away, and they go unto their tents.
7 And to the half of the tribe of Manasseh hath Moses given, in Bashan, and to its [other] half hath Joshua given with their brethren beyond the Jordan westward; and also when Joshua hath sent them away unto their tents, then he doth bless them,
8 and speak unto them, saying, `With great riches turn ye back unto your tents, and with very much cattle, with silver, and with gold, and with brass, and with iron, and with very much raiment; divide the spoil of your enemies with your brethren.'
9 And the sons of Reuben, and the sons of Gad, and the half of the tribe of Manasseh, turn back and go from the sons of Israel out of Shiloh, which [is] in the land of Canaan, to go unto the land of Gilead, unto the land of their possession, in which they have possession, according to the command of Jehovah, by the hand of Moses;
10 and they come in unto the districts of the Jordan, which [are] in the land of Canaan, and the sons of Reuben, and the sons of Gad, and the half of the tribe of Manasseh, build there an altar by the Jordan -- a great altar for appearance.
11 And the sons of Israel hear, saying, `Lo, the sons of Reuben, and the sons of Gad, and the half of the tribe of Manasseh, have built the altar over-against the land of Canaan, on the districts of the Jordan, at the passage of the sons of Israel.'
12 And the sons of Israel hear, and all the company of the sons of Israel is assembled at Shiloh, to go up against them to war;
13 and the sons of Israel send unto the sons of Reuben, and unto the sons of Gad, and unto the half of the tribe of Manasseh -- unto the land of Gilead -- Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest,
14 and ten princes with him, one prince, one prince, for a house of a father, for all the tribes of Israel, and each of them a head of a house of their fathers, for the thousands of Israel.
15 And they come in unto the sons of Reuben, and unto the sons of Gad, and unto the half of the tribe of Manasseh, unto the land of Gilead, and speak with them, saying,
16 `Thus said all the company of Jehovah, What [is] this trespass which ye have trespassed against the God of Israel, to turn back to-day from after Jehovah, by your building for you an altar, for your rebelling to-day against Jehovah?
17 Is the iniquity of Peor little to us, from which we have not been cleansed till this day -- and the plague is in the company of Jehovah,
18 that ye turn back to-day from after Jehovah? and it hath been -- ye rebel to-day against Jehovah -- and to-morrow against all the company of Israel He is wroth.
19 `And surely, if the land of your possession is unclean, pass over for you unto the land of the possession of Jehovah, where the tabernacle of Jehovah hath tabernacled, and have possession in our midst; and against Jehovah rebel not, and against us rebel not, by your building for you an altar, besides the altar of Jehovah our God.
20 Did not Achan son of Zerah commit a trespass in the devoted thing, and on all the company of Israel there was wrath? and he alone expired not in his iniquity.'
21 And the sons of Reuben, and the sons of Gad, and the half of the tribe of Manasseh, answer and speak with the heads of the thousands of Israel:
22 `The God of gods -- Jehovah, the God of gods -- Jehovah, He is knowing, and Israel, he doth know, if in rebellion, and if in trespass against Jehovah (Thou dost not save us this day!)
23 [we are] building for ourselves an altar to turn back from after Jehovah, and if to cause to go up on it burnt-offering and present, and if to make on it peace-offerings -- Jehovah Himself doth require [it].
24 `And if not, from fear of [this] thing we have done it, saying, Hereafter your sons do speak to ours sons, saying, What to you and to Jehovah God of Israel?
25 for a border hath Jehovah put between us and you, O sons of Reuben, and sons of Gad -- Jordan; ye have no portion in Jehovah -- and your sons have caused our sons to cease, not to fear Jehovah.
26 `And we say, Pray let us prepare for ourselves to build the altar -- not for burnt-offering nor for sacrifice --
27 but a witness it [is] between us and you, and between our generations after us, to do the service of Jehovah before Him with our burnt-offerings, and with our sacrifices, and with our peace-offerings, and your sons do not say hereafter to our sons, Ye have no portion in Jehovah.
28 `And we say, And it hath been, when they say [so] unto us, and unto our generations hereafter, that we have said, See the pattern of the altar of Jehovah, which our fathers made -- not for burnt-offering nor for sacrifice -- but a witness it [is] between us and you.
29 `Far be it from us to rebel against Jehovah, and to turn back to-day from after Jehovah, to build an altar for burnt-offering, for present, and for sacrifice, apart from the altar of Jehovah our God, which [is] before His tabernacle.'
30 And Phinehas the priest, and the princes of the company, and the heads of the thousands of Israel, who [are] with him, hear the words which the sons of Reuben, and the sons of Gad, and the sons of Manasseh have spoken, and it is good in their eyes.
31 And Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest saith unto the sons of Reuben, and unto the sons of Gad, and unto the sons of Manasseh, `To-day we have known that Jehovah [is] in our midst, because ye have not committed against Jehovah this trespass -- then ye have delivered the sons of Israel out of the hand of Jehovah.'
32 And Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest, and the princes, turn back from the sons of Reuben, and from the sons of Gad, out of the land of Gilead, unto the land of Canaan, unto the sons of Israel, and bring them back word;
33 and the thing is good in the eyes of the sons of Israel, and the sons of Israel bless God, and have not said to go up against them to war, to destroy the land which the sons of Reuben, and the sons of Gad, are dwelling in.
34 And the sons of Reuben and the sons of Gad proclaim concerning the altar, that `it [is] a witness between us that Jehovah [is] God.'
LittleNipper wrote:King James Bible And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
So you decide what is evil on the basis of what is contained within the english translation of the original Hebrew version of the Bible and Greek version of the New Testament. I determine what is good based on my in built (learnt or genetic) sense of morals. For instance, the Bible says that killing someone on the basis of an eye for an eye, is okay. My morals tell me that's not okay. The Bible says that if a woman, in defence of her husband against another man, comes into contact with her husband's assailant's private parts then she should be punished (killed? hand cut off? I can't recall exactly). My morals tell me that is not okay. My morals tell me that doing recreational drugs is not okay, what do your scriptures have to say about that?
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)