Bible verse by verse

[_The Erotic Apologist]

Nipper, did you write all that yourself? Or are you cutting and pasting someone else's work?

[_The Erotic Apologist]

EroticApologist,

I think what you refer to as the Bible view is the kind of picture of events in Exodus to the death of Moses. I think the thousand year period following that in which the Bible was actually was written people saw and experienced the world like we do and spent time thinking about the contrast you mention. That question is much of the subject of the Old Testament. Why is God slow to stop the wicked?. What sort of miracles does God still do? I think it is the problem of the God of the real world which you mention which drove thinking into Christianity. .

I was actually referring to the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. The Bible begins and ends with mighty miracles, and with plenty more miracles in between. The bold and passionate god of the Bible in no way resembles the shy and impotent god of the "real world", assuming such a creature even exists.

[_huckelberry]

EroticApologist,

I think what you refer to as the Bible view is the kind of picture of events in Exodus to the death of Moses. I think the thousand year period following that in which the Bible was actually was written people saw and experienced the world like we do and spent time thinking about the contrast you mention. That question is much of the subject of the Old Testament. Why is God slow to stop the wicked?. What sort of miracles does God still do? I think it is the problem of the God of the real world which you mention which drove thinking into Christianity. .

I was actually referring to the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. The Bible begins and ends with mighty miracles, and with plenty more miracles in between. The bold and passionate god of the Bible in no way resembles the shy and impotent god of the "real world", assuming such a creature even exists.

You mean to tell me that you do not think sending Hitlers armies to hell in Russia was not as good a trick as sending Pharaohs military outfit into the sea?

EroticApologist , I suspected you were not making the distinction which I choose to make. I just thought distinguishing different vantage points in the Bible was more interesting.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

You mean to tell me that you do not think sending Hitlers armies to hell in Russia was not as good a trick as sending Pharaohs military outfit into the sea?

No, not if you can't show me where an Eastern Orthodox patriarch was able to part the Volga in order to drown General von Paulus and the German Sixth Army. But if you can, I would be forced to agree with you.

EroticApologist , I suspected you were not making the distinction which I choose to make. I just thought distinguishing different vantage points in the Bible was more interesting.

I can agree that we may very well be talking past each other, if that's what you're getting at.

Let me ask you this: Do you consider the crucifixion and resurrection to have literally occurred as described in the Bible? Or do you look at it as more of a symbolic metaphor? A literary device, if you will.

[_huckelberry]

You mean to tell me that you do not think sending Hitlers armies to hell in Russia was not as good a trick as sending Pharaohs military outfit into the sea?

No, not if you can't show me where an Eastern Orthodox patriarch was able to part the Volga in order to drown General von Paulus and the German Sixth Army. But if you can, I would be forced to agree with you.

EroticApologist , I suspected you were not making the distinction which I choose to make. I just thought distinguishing different vantage points in the Bible was more interesting.

I can agree that we may very well be talking past each other, if that's what you're getting at.

Let me ask you this: Do you consider the crucifixion and resurrection to have literally occurred as described in the Bible? Or do you look at it as more of a symbolic metaphor? A literary device, if you will.

I was not aware that God needs some religious big wig waving his arms about to create miracles. Of course you have a point that there is nothing about the fate of the German 6th army which is going to force you to see Gods hand in it. That uncertainty was part of why I chose the comparison, that and the parallel. of, build pride,harden heart, present bait and watch vanity charge over the cliff. But seen that way the natural and any supernatural are interwoven enough that one might see it as just natural. The Egyptians probably did.

Literary device? I understand your question though parable would be a more common Biblical device than symbolic metaphor.A parable might be a story with purely fictional events. It is also possible for real events to be told as a parable. I think the Biblical writers are much inclined to tell history in that manner.

If I think as best I can with purely historical and rational criteria I believe Jesus lived and taught in a manner approximated by the Gospel reports and was crucified and died. His later followers believed he was raised from the dead and the belief was that it actually happened. That story certainly has meaning in a literary fashion beyond the simple one of making people think of oh my that is strange. It expresses the hope that Jesus teaching and action live on in the life of all those willing to pick up his hope. it expresses the hope that whatever is our basic life is connected to what Jesus committed himself to. i Historically I can see it is easy to doubt that Jesus actually came to life again after he was buried. It is possible that visions like Stephens were understood more physically by subsequent believers. Perhaps the meaning of the story gave it strength beyond its physical actuality.

I believe Jesus rose from the dead. I do not know any evidence against it but at the same time realize that I have no way to be objectively certain. I can see the possibilities of the story being hope instead of fact. I might explain that my Christian faith did not start with believing Jesus rose from the dead. Instead it starts with a desire to join Jesus project of changing peoples lives and thus the world. I sign on despite the possibility that we all end in death. I believe that what I understand to be spirit is connected to my best understanding of hope and value in life. So whether Spirit is our best understanding or God touching our best understanding I do not wish to leave it or ignore it and for me it points to Jesus life death and resurrection.

[_LittleNipper]

I was not aware that God needs some religious big wig waving his arms about to create miracles. Of course you have a point that there is nothing about the fate of the German 6th army which is going to force you to see Gods hand in it. That uncertainty was part of why I chose the comparison, that and the parallel. of, build pride,harden heart, present bait and watch vanity charge over the cliff. But seen that way the natural and any supernatural are interwoven enough that one might see it as just natural. The Egyptians probably did.

Literary device? I understand your question though parable would be a more common Biblical device than symbolic metaphor.A parable might be a story with purely fictional events. It is also possible for real events to be told as a parable. I think the Biblical writers are much inclined to tell history in that manner.

If I think as best I can with purely historical and rational criteria I believe Jesus lived and taught in a manner approximated by the Gospel reports and was crucified and died. His later followers believed he was raised from the dead and the belief was that it actually happened. That story certainly has meaning in a literary fashion beyond the simple one of making people think of oh my that is strange. It expresses the hope that Jesus teaching and action live on in the life of all those willing to pick up his hope. it expresses the hope that whatever is our basic life is connected to what Jesus committed himself to. i Historically I can see it is easy to doubt that Jesus actually came to life again after he was buried. It is possible that visions like Stephens were understood more physically by subsequent believers. Perhaps the meaning of the story gave it strength beyond its physical actuality.

I believe Jesus rose from the dead. I do not know any evidence against it but at the same time realize that I have no way to be objectively certain. I can see the possibilities of the story being hope instead of fact. I might explain that my Christian faith did not start with believing Jesus rose from the dead. Instead it starts with a desire to join Jesus project of changing peoples lives and thus the world. I sign on despite the possibility that we all end in death. I believe that what I understand to be spirit is connected to my best understanding of hope and value in life. So whether Spirit is our best understanding or God touching our best understanding I do not wish to leave it or ignore it and for me it points to Jesus life death and resurrection.

You may also wish to consider Saul of Tarsus, who was a most devout Jew. He then converted to Christianity after being involved in the capture and killing of Christians, because of a vision. Without his conversion story, there is no logical reason Saul wouldn't remained a devout Jew. We know that most of the New Testament owes its continuity from the pen of this Saul of Tarsus alias Paul the convert. And Paul is likely a main reason the Church grew so big so fast. Paul is a testimony of Faith and a very big mountain to those who want to believe that Jesus was not the Christ or never existed. If Jesus never existed the devout Saul would have never have converted and promoted Jesus. It would not be logical. No one is saved by logic; however, to dispute Jesus is to dispute with a devout Jew named Saul ----- who, it would seem at one time would have fully agreed with those who now wish to dispel the notion of Jesus Christ the Lord.

[_huckelberry]

Nipper, I agree with you that Paul is substantial evidence against speculation that there was no real Jesus. Most scholars,even those who may be skeptical about Christian faith claims, believe the Christian faith refers back to a real Jew who died on a Roman cross. Even so there have been a few people who doubt that Jesus was a real person. I think those people run counter the stream of objective evidence with that doubt.

[_The Erotic Apologist]

I was not aware that God needs some religious big wig waving his arms about to create miracles.

Moses wasn't a religious big wig?

Literary device? I understand your question though parable would be a more common Biblical device than symbolic metaphor.A parable might be a story with purely fictional events. It is also possible for real events to be told as a parable. I think the Biblical writers are much inclined to tell history in that manner.

I can agree with you if you're suggesting the supernatural elements of the Bible need not be taken literally in order for certain parts--such as the gospels--to present a powerful example of morality, tolerance, and forgiveness.

If I think as best I can with purely historical and rational criteria I believe Jesus lived and taught in a manner approximated by the Gospel reports and was crucified and died. His later followers believed he was raised from the dead and the belief was that it actually happened. That story certainly has meaning in a literary fashion beyond the simple one of making people think of oh my that is strange. It expresses the hope that Jesus teaching and action live on in the life of all those willing to pick up his hope. it expresses the hope that whatever is our basic life is connected to what Jesus committed himself to. i Historically I can see it is easy to doubt that Jesus actually came to life again after he was buried. It is possible that visions like Stephens were understood more physically by subsequent believers. Perhaps the meaning of the story gave it strength beyond its physical actuality.

Yes, that's pretty close to how I look at the gospels--as a powerful example of morality, tolerance, and forgiveness. That Jesus may have accomplished all of that without being a superhero makes his story all the more powerful in my eyes.

I believe Jesus rose from the dead. I do not know any evidence against it but at the same time realize that I have no way to be objectively certain. I can see the possibilities of the story being hope instead of fact. I might explain that my Christian faith did not start with believing Jesus rose from the dead. Instead it starts with a desire to join Jesus project of changing peoples lives and thus the world. I sign on despite the possibility that we all end in death. I believe that what I understand to be spirit is connected to my best understanding of hope and value in life. So whether Spirit is our best understanding or God touching our best understanding I do not wish to leave it or ignore it and for me it points to Jesus life death and resurrection.

Wow, I'm impressed. I wish all Christians were as level headed as you are.

[_LittleNipper]

"Now if Christ is preached that He rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: and if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching in vain, and your faith is also in vain. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ: whom He raised not up, if it is so that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not then is not Christ raised: and if Christ is not raised, your faith is in vain; you are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." 1 Corinthians 15:12-19.

[_Gunnar]

I was not aware that God needs some religious big wig waving his arms about to create miracles.

Moses wasn't a religious big wig?

Literary device? I understand your question though parable would be a more common Biblical device than symbolic metaphor.A parable might be a story with purely fictional events. It is also possible for real events to be told as a parable. I think the Biblical writers are much inclined to tell history in that manner.

I can agree with you if you're suggesting the supernatural elements of the Bible need not be taken literally in order for certain parts--such as the gospels--to present a powerful example of morality, tolerance, and forgiveness.

If I think as best I can with purely historical and rational criteria I believe Jesus lived and taught in a manner approximated by the Gospel reports and was crucified and died. His later followers believed he was raised from the dead and the belief was that it actually happened. That story certainly has meaning in a literary fashion beyond the simple one of making people think of oh my that is strange. It expresses the hope that Jesus teaching and action live on in the life of all those willing to pick up his hope. it expresses the hope that whatever is our basic life is connected to what Jesus committed himself to. i Historically I can see it is easy to doubt that Jesus actually came to life again after he was buried. It is possible that visions like Stephens were understood more physically by subsequent believers. Perhaps the meaning of the story gave it strength beyond its physical actuality.

Yes, that's pretty close to how I look at the gospels--as a powerful example of morality, tolerance, and forgiveness. That Jesus may have accomplished all of that without being a superhero makes his story all the more powerful in my eyes.

I believe Jesus rose from the dead. I do not know any evidence against it but at the same time realize that I have no way to be objectively certain. I can see the possibilities of the story being hope instead of fact. I might explain that my Christian faith did not start with believing Jesus rose from the dead. Instead it starts with a desire to join Jesus project of changing peoples lives and thus the world. I sign on despite the possibility that we all end in death. I believe that what I understand to be spirit is connected to my best understanding of hope and value in life. So whether Spirit is our best understanding or God touching our best understanding I do not wish to leave it or ignore it and for me it points to Jesus life death and resurrection.

Wow, I'm impressed. I wish all Christians were as level headed as you are.

I am equally impressed with huckleberry's level headedness. I think it is Christians like him whom we have most to thank for whatever influence for good Christianity has had on the world, and might still have in times to come. May his tribe increase! Or, at least, may it increase in proportion to dogmatic, and intolerant fundamentalist Biblical inerrantists!