Gunnar wrote:The reality also is, as I understand it, that all of the countries mentioned were in regions in which the lingua franca at that time was either Greek or Aramaic--precisely the languages that Christ and his disciples would have been most likely to know. Because of Judea's location and political situation at the time, it would have been economically and socially advantageous to be familiar with both of those languages, and it would be unremarkable if either Christ or any of his disciples were among those who were conversant in both.
Maklelan, please correct me if I am mistaken about that.
The language situation was quite complex, and is taking center stage again right now because of recent events with the Pope's visit with the Israeli prime minister. It is very true that Greek and Aramaic were lingua francas as the time, and that Christ's entourage would have had members who were conversant in both.
The reality to which I was concerned, however, was that "every nation under heaven" does not mean "every nation under heaven that I'm about to mention." The Bible uses hyperbole all the time with "all," "every," etc. It is very rarely used intentionally to mean "absolutely all."
Gunnar wrote:The reality also is, as I understand it, that all of the countries mentioned were in regions in which the lingua franca at that time was either Greek or Aramaic--precisely the languages that Christ and his disciples would have been most likely to know. Because of Judea's location and political situation at the time, it would have been economically and socially advantageous to be familiar with both of those languages, and it would be unremarkable if either Christ or any of his disciples were among those who were conversant in both.
Maklelan, please correct me if I am mistaken about that.
The language situation was quite complex, and is taking center stage again right now because of recent events with the Pope's visit with the Israeli prime minister. It is very true that Greek and Aramaic were lingua francas as the time, and that Christ's entourage would have had members who were conversant in both.
The reality to which I was concerned, however, was that "every nation under heaven" does not mean "every nation under heaven that I'm about to mention." The Bible uses hyperbole all the time with "all," "every," etc. It is very rarely used intentionally to mean "absolutely all."
Yes, I had just re-read what you and LittleNipper just wrote and was beginning to get a fuller understanding of what you were getting at, and was in the process of editing my last response to reflect that, when my oldest daughter interrupted me by calling long distance to wish me a happy Father's Day. Nevertheless, thanks for the further elucidation!
Last edited by Guest on Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Gunnar wrote:The reality also is, as I understand it, that all of the countries mentioned were in regions in which the lingua franca at that time was either Greek or Aramaic--precisely the languages that Christ and his disciples would have been most likely to know.
Christ - if existed - probably has spoken Greek, he was of an educated environment. Most of the disciples were uneducated farmboysfishermen (or whatnot), speaking only Aramaic. My guess...
maklelan wrote:The language situation was quite complex ... The reality to which I was concerned, however, was that "every nation under heaven" does not mean "every nation under heaven that I'm about to mention." The Bible uses hyperbole all the time with "all," "every," etc. It is very rarely used intentionally to mean "absolutely all."
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Gunnar wrote:The reality also is, as I understand it, that all of the countries mentioned were in regions in which the lingua franca at that time was either Greek or Aramaic--precisely the languages that Christ and his disciples would have been most likely to know.
Christ - if existed - probably has spoken Greek, he was of an educated environment. Most of the disciples were uneducated farmboysfishermen (or whatnot), speaking only Aramaic. My guess...
You may be right, of course, but even relatively uneducated trades people, fishermen and farmers and the like sometimes manage to pick up some of the language spoken by frequent foreign visitors to their country. One example I have in mind is the largely illiterate and impoverished Mexicans in towns near the U.S.A. Border trying to eke out a meager living by soliciting the numerous U.S. tourists who come across the border to visit. Besides, not all of Christ's disciples were necessarily uneducated. Matthew was reputedly a publican (a tax collector for the Romans) and could well have known both Greek and Latin in addition to Aramaic, if I understand correctly.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
Gunnar wrote:, not all of Christ's disciples were necessarily uneducated. Matthew was reputedly a publican (a tax collector for the Romans) and could well have known both Greek and Latin in addition to Aramaic, if I understand correctly.
Yes, he was that type. Tax collectors are more educated, as of today...
Another educated one was Judas - I think the only one disciple older than Jesus, and the only one who wasn't chosen but joined freely.
And he was the device of salvation: "Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him."
Traitor? Or faithful servant? Would Jesus denounce himself without Judas' help?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
1 Kings 20:1-43 King Ben-hadad of Syria mobilized his army and, with 32 allied kingdoms, hordes of chariots and horses, besieged Samaria (the capital of Israel). He sent this message into the city to King Ahab of Israel: “Your silver and gold are mine, as are your prettiest wives and the best of your children!” Ahab agreed. “All that I have is yours!” Soon Ben-hadad’s messengers returned again with another message: “You must not only give me your silver, gold, wives, and children, but about this time tomorrow I will send my men to search your palace and the homes of your people, and they will take away whatever they like!"
Ahab called his advisors. “Look what this man is doing,” he complained. “He is stirring up trouble despite the fact that I have already told him he could have my wives and children and silver and gold, just as he demanded.”
“Don’t give him anything more,” the elders advised. So he told the messengers from Ben-hadad, “Tell my lord the king, ‘I will give you everything you asked for the first time, but your men may not search the palace and the homes of the people.’”So the messengers returned to Ben-hadad.
Then the Syrian king sent this message to Ahab: “May the gods do more to me than I am going to do to you if I don’t turn Samaria into handfuls of dust!” Ahab replied, “Don’t count your chickens before they hatch!”
This reply of Ahab’s reached Ben-hadad and the other kings as they were drinking in their tents, and Ben-hadad threw a fit... A prophet came to King Ahab and gave him this message from the Lord: “Do you see all these enemy forces? I will deliver them all to you today. Then at last you will know that I am the Lord.” Ahab questioned how God would do it? The prophet replied, “The Lord says, ‘By the troops from the provinces.’”
“Shall we attack first?” Ahab asked. The prophet said yes. So he mustered the troops from the provinces, 232 of them, then the rest of his army of 7,000 men. About noontime, as Ben-hadad and the 32 allied kings were still getting drunk, the 1st of Ahab’s troops marched out of the city. As they approached, Ben-hadad’s scouts reported to him, “Some troops are coming!” “Take them alive,” Ben-hadad commanded, “whether they have come for truce or for war.”
By now Ahab’s entire army had joined the attack. Each soldier killed a Syrian soldier, and suddenly the entire Syrian army panicked and fled. The Israelis chased them, but King Ben-hadad and a few others escaped on horses. However, the great bulk of the horses and chariots were captured, and most of the Syrian army was killed in a great slaughter. Then the prophet approached King Ahab and said, “Get ready for another attack by the king of Syria.”
After the defeat, Ben-hadad’s officers said to him, “The Israeli God is a god of the hills; that is why they won. But we can beat them easily on the plains. Only this time replace the kings with generals! Recruit another army like the one you lost; give us the same number of horses, chariots, and men, and we will fight against them in the plains; there’s not a shadow of a doubt that we will win.”
So King Ben-hadad did as they suggested. The next year he called up the Syrian army and marched out against Israel again, this time at Aphek. Israel then mustered its army, set up supply lines, and moved into the battle; but the Israeli army looked like 2 small flocks of baby goats in comparison to the vast Syrian forces that filled the countryside!
The prophet went to the king of Israel with this message from the Lord: “Because the Syrians have declared, ‘The Lord is a God of the hills and not of the plains,’ I will help you defeat this vast army, and you shall know that I am indeed the Lord.” The two armies camped opposite each other for a week, and on the seventh day the battle began. And the Israelis killed 100,000 Syrian infantrymen that first day.
The rest fled behind the walls of Aphek, but the wall fell on them and killed another 27,000. Ben-hadad fled into the city and hid in the inner room of one of the houses. “Sir,” his officers said to him, “we have heard that the kings of Israel are very merciful. Let us wear sackcloth and put ropes on our heads and go out to King Ahab to see if he will let you live.” So they went to the king of Israel and begged, “Your servant Ben-hadad pleads, ‘Let me live!’" “Oh, is he still alive?” the king of Israel asked. “He is my brother!” The men were quick to grab this straw of hope and hurried to clinch the matter by exclaiming, “Yes, your brother Ben-hadad!”
“Go and get him,” the king of Israel told them. And when Ben-hadad arrived, he invited him up into his chariot! Ben-hadad told him, “I will restore the cities my father took from your father, and you may establish trading posts in Damascus, as my father did in Samaria.” Meanwhile, the Lord instructed one of the prophets to say to another man, “Strike me with your sword!” But the man refused.
Then the prophet told him, “Because you have not obeyed the voice of the Lord, a lion shall kill you as soon as you leave me.” And sure enough, as he turned to go a lion attacked and killed him. Then the prophet turned to another man and said, “Strike me with your sword.” And he did, wounding him. The prophet waited for the king beside the road, having placed a bandage over his eyes to disguise himself. As the king passed by, the prophet called out to him, “Sir, I was in the battle, and a man brought me a prisoner and said, ‘Keep this man; if he gets away, you must die, or else pay me a talent of silver !’ But while I was busy doing something else, the prisoner disappeared!” “Well, it’s your own fault,” the king replied. “You’ll have to pay.” The prophet yanked off the bandage from his eyes, and the king recognized him as one of the prophets. The prophet told him, “The Lord says, ‘Because you have spared the man I said must die, now you must die in his place, and your people shall perish instead of his.’”
Ahab went home to Samaria angry and sullen.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
1 And Ben-Hadad king of Aram hath gathered all his force, and thirty and two kings [are] with him, and horse and chariot, and he goeth up and layeth siege against Samaria, and fighteth with it,
2 and sendeth messengers unto Ahab king of Israel, to the city,
3 and saith to him, `Thus said Ben-Hadad, `Thy silver and thy gold are mine, and thy wives and thy sons -- the best -- are mine.'
4 And the king of Israel answereth and saith, `According to thy word, my lord, O king: I [am] thine, and all that I have.'
5 And the messengers turn back and say, `Thus spake Ben-Hadad, saying, Surely I sent unto thee, saying, Thy silver, and thy gold, and thy wives, and thy sons, to me thou dost give;
6 for if, at this time to-morrow, I send my servants unto thee then they have searched thy house, and the houses of thy servants, and it hath been, every desirable thing of thine eyes they place in their hand, and have taken away.'
7 And the king of Israel calleth to all the elders of the land, and saith, `Know, I pray you, and see that evil this [one] is seeking, for he sent unto me for my wives, and for my sons, and for my silver, and for my gold, and I withheld not from him.'
8 And all the elders and all the people say unto him, `Do not hearken, nor consent.'
9 And he saith to the messengers of Ben-Hadad, `Say to my lord the king, All that thou didst send for unto thy servant at the first I do, and this thing I am not able to do;' and the messengers go and take him back word.
10 And Ben-Hadad sendeth unto him, and saith, `Thus do the gods to me, and thus do they add, if the dust of Samaria suffice for handfuls for all the people who [are] at my feet.'
11 And the king of Israel answereth and saith, `Speak ye: let not him who is girding on boast himself as him who is loosing [his armour].'
12 And it cometh to pass at the hearing of this word -- and he is drinking, he and the kings, in the booths -- that he saith unto his servants, `Set yourselves;' and they set themselves against the city.
13 And lo, a certain prophet hath come nigh unto Ahab king of Israel, and saith, `Thus said Jehovah, `Hast thou seen all this great multitude? lo, I am giving it into thy hand to-day, and thou hast known that I [am] Jehovah.'
14 And Ahab saith, `By whom?' and he saith, `Thus said Jehovah, By the young men of the heads of the provinces;' and he saith, `Who doth direct the battle?' and he saith, `Thou.'
15 And he inspecteth the young men of the heads of the provinces, and they are two hundred, two and thirty, and after them he hath inspecteth the whole of the people, all the sons of Israel, seven thousand,
16 and they go out at noon, and Ben-Hadad is drinking -- drunk in the booths, he and the kings, the thirty and two kings, helping him.
17 And the young men of the heads of the provinces go out at the first, and Ben-Hadad sendeth, and they declare to him, saying, `Men have come out of Samaria.'
18 And he saith, `If for peace they have come out -- catch them alive; and if for battle they have come out -- alive catch them.'
19 And these have gone out of the city -- the young men of the heads of the provinces -- and the force that [is] after them,
20 and smite each his man, and Aram fleeth, and Israel pursueth them, and Ben-Hadad king of Aram escapeth on a horse, and the horsemen;
21 and the king of Israel goeth out, and smiteth the horses, and the charioteers, and hath smitten among the Aramaeans a great smiting.
22 And the prophet cometh nigh unto the king of Israel, and saith to him, `Go, strengthen thyself, and know and see that which thou dost, for at the turn of the year the king of Aram is coming up against thee.'
23 And the servants of the king of Aram said unto him, `Gods of hills [are] their gods, therefore they were stronger than we; and yet, we fight with them in the plain -- are we not stronger than they?
24 `And this thing do thou: turn aside the kings each out of his place, and set captains in their stead;
25 and thou, number to thee a force as the force that is fallen from thee, and horse for horse, and chariot for chariot, and we fight with them in the plain; are we not stronger than they?' and he hearkeneth to their voice, and doth so.
26 And it cometh to pass at the turn of the year, that Ben-Hadad inspecteth the Aramaeans, and goeth up to Aphek, to battle with Israel,
27 and the sons of Israel have been inspected, and supported, and go to meet them, and the sons of Israel encamp before them, like two flocks of goats, and the Aramaeans have filled the land.
28 And there cometh nigh a man of God, and speaketh unto the king of Israel, and saith, `Thus said Jehovah, Because that the Aramaeans have said, God of hills [is] Jehovah, and He [is] not God of valleys -- I have given the whole of this great multitude into thy hand, and ye have known that I [am] Jehovah.'
29 And they encamp one over-against another seven days, and it cometh to pass on the seventh day, that the battle draweth near, and the sons of Israel smite Aram -- a hundred thousand footmen in one day.
30 And those left flee to Aphek, unto the city, and the wall falleth on twenty and seven chief men who are left, and Ben-Hadad hath fled, and cometh in unto the city, into the innermost part.
31 And his servants say unto him, `Lo, we pray thee, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel -- that they are kind kings; let us put, we pray thee, sackcloth on our loins, and ropes on our heads, and we go out unto the king of Israel; it may be he doth keep thee alive.'
32 And they gird sackcloth on their loins, and ropes [are] on their heads, and they come in unto the king of Israel, and say, `Thy servant Ben-Hadad hath said, Let me live, I pray thee;' and he saith, `Is he yet alive? he [is] my brother.'
33 And the men observe diligently, and hasten, and catch it from him, and say, `Thy brother Ben-Hadad;' and he saith, `Go ye in, bring him;' and Ben-Hadad cometh out unto him, and he causeth him to come up on the chariot.
34 And he saith unto him, `The cities that my father took from thy father, I give back, and streets thou dost make for thee in Damascus, as my father did in Samaria;' -- `and I, with a covenant, send thee away;' and he maketh with him a covenant, and sendeth him away.
35 And a certain man of the sons of the prophets said unto his neighbour by the word of Jehovah, `Smite me, I pray thee;' and the man refuseth to smite him,
36 and he saith to him, `Because that thou hast not hearkened to the voice of Jehovah, lo, thou art going from me, and the lion hath smitten thee;' and he goeth from him, and the lion findeth him, and smiteth him.
37 And he findeth another man, and saith, `Smite me, I pray thee;' and the man smiteth him, smiting and wounding,
38 and the prophet goeth and standeth for the king on the way, and disguiseth himself with ashes on his eyes.
39 And it cometh to pass -- the king is passing by -- that he hath cried unto the king, and saith, `Thy servant went out into the midst of the battle, and lo, a man hath turned aside and bringeth in unto me a man, and saith, Keep this man; if he be at all missing, then hath thy life been for his life, or a talent of silver thou dost weigh out;
40 and it cometh to pass, thy servant is working hither and thither, and he is not!' and the king of Israel saith unto him, Right [is] thy judgment; thou hast determined [it].'
41 And he hasteth and turneth aside the ashes from off his eyes, and the king of Israel discerneth him, that he [is] of the prophets,
42 and he saith unto him, `Thus said Jehovah, Because thou hast sent away the man I devoted, out of [thy] hand, even thy life hath been for his life, and thy people for his people;'
43 and the king of Israel goeth unto his house, sulky and wroth, and cometh in to Samaria.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jun 18, 2014 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Or the simple condition of having three or more loose or liquid bowel movements per day?
Or an advertisement for using tenses as hasteth/turneth/discerneth?
29 ... and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians an hundred thousand footmen in one day. 30 But the rest fled to Aphek, into the city; and there a wall fell upon twenty and seven thousand of the men that were left.
Beautiful numbers; they might fit even into Book of Mormon.
by the way Do You know the name of this site?
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Gunnar wrote:, not all of Christ's disciples were necessarily uneducated. Matthew was reputedly a publican (a tax collector for the Romans) and could well have known both Greek and Latin in addition to Aramaic, if I understand correctly.
Yes, he was that type. Tax collectors are more educated, as of today...
Another educated one was Judas - I think the only one disciple older than Jesus, and the only one who wasn't chosen but joined freely.
And he was the device of salvation: "Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him."
Traitor? Or faithful servant? Would Jesus denounce himself without Judas' help?
Good questions! I'm sure you know about the fairly recently found and translated Gospel of Judas which does indeed support the claim that Judas was a faithful servant, rather than a traitor.
No precept or claim is more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
“If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; but if you really make them think, they'll hate you.”
― Harlan Ellison
ludwigm wrote:Yes, he was that type. Tax collectors are more educated, as of today...
Another educated one was Judas - I think the only one disciple older than Jesus, and the only one who wasn't chosen but joined freely.
And he was the device of salvation: "Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night. Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him."
Traitor? Or faithful servant? Would Jesus denounce himself without Judas' help?
Good questions! I'm sure you know about the fairly recently found and translated Gospel of Judas which does indeed support the claim that Judas was a faithful servant, rather than a traitor.
The Gospel of Judas was not written by Judas. The Coptic manuscript seems to date from the third or fourth century. Judas hung himself ----- nothing faithful in that. He never sought forgiveness. He did what he always did ---- took matters into his own hands. John 12:5-6 Judas said “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” He said this, not because he cared anything concerning the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it.
LittleNipper wrote: Judas hung himself ----- nothing faithful in that. He never sought forgiveness. He did what he always did ---- took matters into his own hands. John 12:5-6 Judas said “Why was this ointment not sold for three hundred denarii and given to the poor?” He said this, not because he cared anything concerning the poor, but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it.
Hey LittleNipper!
Is Judas a negative figure for You? He seems to be.
Then explain me us please, where were the salvation, without Judas' so called betrayal?
Would have Jesus walked into the office of Pilatus to report oneself, saying "crucify me, it is necessary for the whole humanity - even for that slit-eyeds living in an area unknown for me and you, and whose peculiar writing is so liked by LittleNipper!" ...
------------------------------------ Then Pilatus said to the chief priests and to the people, I find no fault in this man - he wants only to invent the christianity ...
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
