Many LDS people rightly complain that others do not consider Mormons to be Christians. Unfortunately, some LDS people are ready to deny others their claim to be Christians.
DCP wrote:[Marcus Borg] was, by all accounts, a kind and decent man.
But he had ceased to be a Christian, I think, according to most ordinary definitions of that word.
Elder Holland wrote:We are not considered Christian by some because we are not fourth-century Christians, we are not Nicene Christians, we are not creedal Christians of the brand that arose hundreds of years after Christ. No, when we speak of “restored Christianity” we speak of the Church as it was in its New Testament purity, not as it became when great councils were called to debate and anguish over what it was they really believed. So if one means Greek-influenced, council-convening, philosophy-flavored Christianity of post-apostolic times, we are not that kind of Christian. Peter we know, and Paul we know, but Constantine and Athanasius, Athens and Alexandria we do not know. (Actually, we know them, we just don’t follow them.)
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Perhaps, having seen the success that his colleague Bill Hamblin had in defining the requirements to be entitled to be called a "real" Mormon, DCP should enlighten us on what parts of the "ordinary definitions" of the word "Christian" really count.
Of course, by guarding his claim with the phrase "I think", it may be that DCP is warning us that he is using a very idiosyncratic set of characteristics.
NOMinal member
Maksutov: "... if you give someone else the means to always push your buttons, you're lost."
malkie wrote:Of course, by guarding his claim with the phrase "I think", it may be that DCP is warning us that he is using a very idiosyncratic set of characteristics.
Mais bien sûr!
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
Elder Holland wrote:We are not considered Christian by some because we are not fourth-century Christians, we are not Nicene Christians, we are not creedal Christians of the brand that arose hundreds of years after Christ. No, when we speak of “restored Christianity” we speak of the Church as it was in its New Testament purity, not as it became when great councils were called to debate and anguish over what it was they really believed. So if one means Greek-influenced, council-convening, philosophy-flavored Christianity of post-apostolic times, we are not that kind of Christian. Peter we know, and Paul we know, but Constantine and Athanasius, Athens and Alexandria we do not know. (Actually, we know them, we just don’t follow them.)
Holland the Dodo is so good at being smug when playing the victim card.
Kishkumen wrote:Many LDS people rightly complain that others do not consider Mormons to be Christians. Unfortunately, some LDS people are ready to deny others their claim to be Christians.
DCP wrote:[Marcus Borg] was, by all accounts, a kind and decent man.
But he had ceased to be a Christian, I think, according to most ordinary definitions of that word.
Elder Holland wrote:We are not considered Christian by some because we are not fourth-century Christians, we are not Nicene Christians, we are not creedal Christians of the brand that arose hundreds of years after Christ. No, when we speak of “restored Christianity” we speak of the Church as it was in its New Testament purity, not as it became when great councils were called to debate and anguish over what it was they really believed. So if one means Greek-influenced, council-convening, philosophy-flavored Christianity of post-apostolic times, we are not that kind of Christian. Peter we know, and Paul we know, but Constantine and Athanasius, Athens and Alexandria we do not know. (Actually, we know them, we just don’t follow them.)
That really is rich. And the COJCOLDS is up to fighting for their brand "Mormon" in court in Canada. And then they refuse to recognize the FLDS as "Mormon". So does everybody or nobody get to decide what they're called?
Maksutov wrote:That really is rich. And the COJCOLDS is up to fighting for their brand "Mormon" in court in Canada. And then they refuse to recognize the FLDS as "Mormon". So does everybody or nobody get to decide what they're called?
Many people expect to enjoy the freedoms they deny others.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
I must confess that I am a bit uncomfortable with Peterson's line of thinking here. Some years ago, he and S. Ricks wrote: "What makes a person a Christian in the first century, and what makes a person a Christian today, is, simply, a commitment to Jesus Christ."
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac
Tom wrote:I must confess that I am a bit uncomfortable with Peterson's line of thinking here. Some years ago, he and S. Ricks wrote: "What makes a person a Christian in the first century, and what makes a person a Christian today, is, simply, a commitment to Jesus Christ."
I recall that, Tom. Perhaps that kind of thinking is in his past. Now the bar has been raised higher, particularly for liberals.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
I've met Marcus Borg many times and read nearly all of his books. I didn't realize he had passed until I saw this thread. He was a first class scholar and his passing is a big loss.
When I was at Harvard and having serious doubts to the historicity of the Book of Mormon I tried to put my doubts on the shelf and just focus on the life of Jesus. I soon realized that the Jesus I knew as a Mormon was an American Protestant post-Easter Jesus that didn't have much resemblance to the historical man. Like many who experienced a loss of faith this was very troubling for me. His book Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time was an enlightening experience for me. It allowed me to still participate and enjoy the Christian tradition without literal or exclusive claims.
Borg considered himself Christian and that's good enough for me. And I'm disappointed at Daniel Peterson for taking a mean spirited pot shot at the man.
