Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

[Meadowchik]

And he has a right to weed out PITA people.

He has the legal right to claim to be Jesus come again.

[The Stig]

It's this kind of passionate and blinded following as evidenced by the posts of Tavares Standfield that most concerns me about Dehlin. He has developed a cult of personality kind of following amongst many in the exmo community. The pattern is all too similar to that of Joseph Smith and I see way too many who leave the church who end up as followers of some other malignant pied piper.

John has literally saved hundreds of lives. And he has brought tens of thousands out of the LDS Church.

If any man deserves our respect and admiration, it is John Dehlin.

Do you even hear yourself when you say these things? Seriously? Let's compare your statement to this one...

“Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it. In the short space of twenty years, he has brought forth the Book of Mormon, which he translated by the gift and power of God, and has been the means of publishing it on two continents; has sent the fulness of the everlasting gospel, which it contained, to the four quarters of the earth; has brought forth the revelations and commandments which compose this book of Doctrine and Covenants, and many other wise documents and instructions for the benefit of the children of men; gathered many thousands of the Latter-day Saints, founded a great city, and left a fame and name that cannot be slain. He lived great, and he died great in the eyes of God and his people; and like most of the Lord’s anointed in ancient times, has sealed his mission and his works with his own blood; and so has his brother Hyrum. In life they were not divided, and in death they were not separated!” (Doctrine and Covenants 135:3).

[Kishkumen]

And he has a right to weed out PITA people.

He has the legal right to claim to be Jesus come again.

Yeah, and your proportionality is breathtaking!

[Kishkumen]

No but he is someone offering support to distressed, sometimes traumatized individuals. In that he does in my opinion have a moral obligation to conduct himself ethically and to strive for healthy relationship models in the communities he is building.

Are you in need of these services? Or do you want to offer a better option?

By all means, choose to use someone else’s services or offer better ones yourself.

What I am hearing is people complain that so many people like Dehlin and should not because he is such a terrible person. Sounds like sour grapes.

Let the market decide.

[Meadowchik]

Yeah, and your proportionality is breathtaking!

This thread is not about legalities. I only employed hyperbole to rebutt your strawman. I have not used it to scaffold my own arguments.

[Meadowchik]

Are you in need of these services? Or do you want to offer a better option?

By all means, choose to use someone else’s services or offer better ones yourself.

What I am hearing is people complain that so many people like Dehlin and should not because he is such a terrible person. Sounds like sour grapes.

Let the market decide.

Of course let the market decide!

What do you think this forum is? We can reasonably say we are consumers who are discussing the products of Mormonism, broadly defined.

I am discussing consumer feedback, along with industry feedback about John Dehlin's Mormonism-related products and business.

Ask anyone in markets about the role of word-of-mouth in consumption. Surely it belongs in the mix, always has.

[Kishkumen]

This thread is not about legalities. I only employed hyperbole to rebutt your strawman. I have not used it to scaffold my own arguments.

Yeah, it’s not about legalities. Never said it was. I was being cheeky. I understand it is hard to communicate that kind of thing unless you use emojis and I’m just not good about that.

But it’s not really a straw man. It’s basically me telling people who moan about this crap to get a life and do their own thing. If Coca-Cola makes me sick, I buy Pepsi. If I don’t like slasher flicks, I don’t see them. If I don’t like one therapist, I see another. If my job sucks, I find another job ASAP. I don’t spend the rest of my life complaining about the things I opted out of.

The LDS Church is a little different. John Dehlin, however, is not the LDS Church. Nor is he a surrogate for the LDS Church. The sooner his superfans and haters figure this out, the sooner they will find self respect and move on.

[Kishkumen]

Of course let the market decide!

What do you think this forum is? We can reasonably say we are consumers who are discussing the products of Mormonism, broadly defined.

I am discussing consumer feedback, along with industry feedback about John Dehlin's Mormonism-related products and business.

Ask anyone in markets about the role of word-of-mouth in consumption. Surely it belongs in the mix, always has.

Indeed! You’ll get no argument from me! I am not contesting your ability to do as you see fit. But I can tell you exactly what I think of the people who dedicate so much time to moaning about Dehlin. I have vanishingly little respect for them and their moaning, and I am at peace with that. Let them go be successful in their own thing and knock him out of the market fair and square.

[dastardly stem]

I didn't read her as saying he didn't have a right. He has a right to toss anyone out just as the Church does. It's simply something to put out there. Dehlin was upset when the Church canned him for his disagreements with it. Yet he seems quicker than the Church to kick people out of his club for even more minor offenses. I wonder if there's a comparison to make in terms of number of those kicked out of both clubs relative to the size of the whole?

I don’t believe that a business has the same obligations a church has. Does John Dehlin offer eternal salvation? Divine truth? Priesthood authority? Prophetic predictions?

No, no, no, no.

Church, these days is basically business. I enjoyed my discussions with Dr Peterson on this topic. Read the mission statements and goals of large corporations and you'll see they say they are all about serving people, helping and doing good in the world. Just like church. Of course business' main goal is money, they just don't put that in writing. The church is no different. It really needs money to survive and apparently sees money making as the highest priority. Sounds like John has adopted the church's business model.

Of course in another way there is comparison, church can be seen as refuge for the beleaguered, not unlike those who John caters to. Indeed I believe I read a follower of John on this very board just today offer a testimony of how John "literally" saved hundreds of people.

There seems to be more comparisons then at first glance.

[Kishkumen]

Church, these days is basically business. I enjoyed my discussions with Dr Peterson on this topic. Read the mission statements and goals of large corporations and you'll see they say they are all about serving people, helping and doing good in the world. Just like church. Of course business' main goal is money, they just don't put that in writing. The church is no different. It really needs money to survive and apparently sees money making as the highest priority. Sounds like John has adopted the church's business model.

Of course in another way there is comparison, church can be seen as refuge for the beleaguered, not unlike those who John caters to. Indeed I believe I read a follower of John on this very board just today offer a testimony of how John "literally" saved hundreds of people.

There seems to be more comparisons then at first glance.

Yes? I thought this was something that bothered a lot of us because we didn’t think it should be that way. You know, like the Kingdom of God is not GM? Now you are saying, what? That John Dehlin should be expected to act like the ideal church the LDS Church failed to be?