John Gee, Historian

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_schreech
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _schreech »

ldsfaqs wrote:
The non-LDS scholar wasn't studying Mormonism, they were studying Egyptology.
It's LDS however who saw that the new found information apply's to what Joseph said, as evidence of his being right in some instances.


Which non-LDS scholar are you talking about and what were his/her discoveries?

It would seem that when you said...

ldsfaqs wrote:Did you know that non-LDS scholars and then LDS scholars have found that several of Joseph's interpretations of the Facsimilee images are in fact HISTORICALLY VALID interpretations and usages, having been found in history, and not just found, but relate to Abraham, etc.? Thus, Joseph didn't just make crap up when explaining the Fascimilees, he was recieving revelation of a truth.


...you were just talking out your butt. Feel free to provide any backup to the above claim...and please don't link us to an outdated, useless video about the Book of Mormon, nobody but desperate LDS buy any of that twaddle.
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
"I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
_schreech
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _schreech »

Chap wrote:
So that's a "No sorry, I can't give you what you asked for", then.

There is no scholarship by a non-LDS scholar published in a professional peer-reviewed journal agreeing that "Joseph didn't just make crap up when explaining the Fascimiles, he was receiving revelation of a truth".


ah, you beat me to it. I like how he thinks that changing the subject to an even more ridiculous "translation" by Joseph Smith will somehow compensate for his inability to back up a single thing he said about the Facsimiles. My guess is that his next tactic will be to tell us to do our own homework because he already studied all this fully and he just knows...
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
"I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
_suniluni2
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _suniluni2 »

ldsfaqs wrote:1. He did contradict their claim of adultery however, saying he didn't do so. So, that sounds like claiming innocence.


You seem quite selective when choosing to accept what something "sounds like".

ldsfaqs wrote:2. Sealings can be for time and/or Eternity.


Do you know when this distinction was made? Today, when LDS members are married civilly by their bishop, does he pronounce that he is "sealing" them for time?

Are dynastic sealings done today? If no, why not? Was Joseph Smith the only Mormon in the history of the world to be sealed to women for eternity only?

ldsfaqs wrote:3. Yep, that's what I'm saying. It's also what both Joseph and Emma said, she saying it to her death, that he did not practice polygamy.
She understood the distinction..... as well as the anti-mormons then, why don't you all?


So, the Partridge sisters for instance: do you disagree that they were Joseph's bona fide "wives", time and eternity, no qualifications or disclaimers. (I'm talking about their second marriage to Joseph after Emma approved as required in D&C 132).
_Manetho
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Manetho »

Gadianton wrote:If I understand you both, then Gee appears to agree with both of you that Egyptology is stuck in a early 20th century positivist stage.

I do not agree with that, at least not entirely. The positivist worldview held by major 20th-century figures in Egyptology did hold back studies of Egyptian religion for a long time. People like Kurt Sethe and his student Alan Gardiner (whom Gee mentions) tried to explain the many inconsistencies in Egyptian religious belief by assuming they all resulted from awkward compromises between religious factions. It seems to have been the only way they could wrap their heads around Egyptian religion. The newer style of thinking about Egyptian religion that began in the late 20th century, which attempts to look at it from the Egyptians' point of view as much as possible, has actually been called postmodernist, in some encyclopedia of religious studies that I once happened across. It's possible, though, that Egyptology still has positivist tendencies in other areas, ones more closely tied to the hard facts of archeological finds. I'm not all that savvy on theory and methodology myself, so I can't say for sure.

What Gee seems to be doing in the review is the same thing he does in "Mormon Scholars Testify": http://mormonscholarstestify.org/737/john-gee. In fact, I couldn't tell what he was driving at in the review until I read that testimony. If Egyptology is too insistent on concrete answers, Gee implies, it will end up dismissing or minimizing Egyptian beliefs the way Sethe and Gardiner did. If it remains open to supernatural explanations—by adopting squishy relativism—it will be thinking more like the Egyptians did. Obviously, he wants people studying Mormonism to give it the same benefit of the doubt.

What he ignores, of course, is that if you attribute things to the work of a god, you risk missing a more concrete explanation. I actually think studies of Egyptian religion have gone a bit too far in the opposite direction since the days of Sethe. Too often, they don't consider the ways in which practical reality or political needs may have conflicted with religious ideology, or helped shape it. And when people studying Mormonism tie themselves in knots trying to defend the divine authority of the Book of Abraham, they miss the simplest explanation.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Utterly bizarre.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Gadianton
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Gadianton »

Symmachus,

thanks for the summary, "So, yeah, we need a sophisticated approach in examining magical papyri containing the name "Abraham" or variations of it in Old Coptic from the Greco-Roman period, an approach that contextualizes these texts in their ritual setting."

Until now I had no idea what the essay was supposed to be about. What has drawn me to it over the years is the "Egyptology has not experienced the Kuhnian revolution" stuff that you also mention.

Our new friend Manetho disagrees about the revolution, but my interest is the interest Gee and other apologists have (had?) in Kuhnian revolutions. In 2012 the Maxwell Institute experienced the Kuhnian revolution and how is that going for these guys?

More from Manetho:

Manetho wrote:The newer style of thinking about Egyptian religion that began in the late 20th century, which attempts to look at it from the Egyptians' point of view as much as possible, has actually been called postmodernist


DCP, a huge fan of Alan Sokal, has been far more cautious in what he's wished for. The way he puts it, apologetics merely makes a different starting assumption than "secular" academics, but proceeds with evidential rigor. I think his generic stance of fallibilism is what most of the apologists really want from Kuhn.

Here are the dots, and the dots connect to form one and only one picture, and that picture has a definite meaning, but the number of dots the spade has uncovered might leave the picture underdetermined, and so we might have two pictures or three, and even some disagreements on what the pictures actually mean, but at the end of the day, if we were to root out human fallibility and if we have enough dots, we would have the truth. Both believers an non-believers can draw compelling pictures, and positivists/critics are wrong for denying believers their equally scholarly evidential approach.

But if Kuhn is right, then the picture is necessarily underdetermined, there are no ultimate meanings to the pictures, and even what a "dot" is can be disputed. My less sure impression is that Novick, who DCP plugs from time to time, also does not leave much hope for a simple, evidence based TBM narrative of the universe to win out in the end.

Apologists approach Egyptology precisely as it is approached in the Stargate franchise -- assuming like me, you and Manetho are both fans. Ra, an alien of the race of Goa'uld came down and did a really bad thing, and it's a bit of a mystery why. But hold on, here is an ancient scroll, and it depicts Ra doing the bad thing, and it explains why, and also reveals his next step. With some help from the Asgard spaceship, Ra is caught red-handed doing exactly what the scroll said. With enough dead hits reading Egyptian manuscripts this way, Daniel, from the series, would be deferred to by every Egyptologist in the world if taken along on his adventures. The same will hold for Egyptologists in the real world when they stand at the judgment bar and shown a woman literally called Egyptus founding Egypt and Abraham in Egypt writing the manuscripts. But how can Daniel convince his peers without violating the terms of the NDA with the government?

What he really needs is a revolution, but it's not a Kuhnian revolution, but more along the lines of a revolution W. F. Albright imagined where the dots simply line up and prove the TBM story. Short of that, idiosyncratic parallels can be called out along with any work that erodes confidence in the order of things. Kuhn doesn't help, but how about narrative theology, or something like it?

Manetho wrote:People like Kurt Sethe and his student Alan Gardiner (whom Gee mentions) tried to explain the many inconsistencies in Egyptian religious belief by assuming they all resulted from awkward compromises between religious factions. It seems to have been the only way they could wrap their heads around Egyptian religion.


How would this help Gee or any apologist? Beyond undermining a positivist approach, there is nothing here that theoretically aligns with any work any apologist does. For the new MI religious studies crowd, substitute "Egyptian" with "Mormon" and there are a bunch of papers that go the narrative theology route.

But I think we need some clarity on that last quote from Manetho. Narrative theology, if that is what the quote points to, attempts to look at the world from the internal logic of the worldview or religion. Perhaps the worldview is arcane, but we'd need to be careful about resting the powers of modern description and lo, now we have a better description. To draw an analogy from Thomas Nagel's What's it like to be a bat: like the Egyptian or Mormon religion, we can't get our heads around the internal world of the bat, but after reading Nagel's article, we are drawn to bat phenomenology and perhaps we get somewhere with it, but we can't say from here that we have a better description of the internal world of the bat, otherwise, we're simply showing a contingent failure of positivism in practice, and one that's a correction in progress in what ultimately is just a deeper form of positivism. In other words, its useless for the project of an apologist who wants to show his interpretation is the right one.

I have some thoughts on why Bokovoy is better positioned, as thoroughly positivist in his training (guessing here), for Mormon Studies and also why it is unlikely that apologetics will ever have credibility thanks to Novick and Kuhn. for another post.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Apr 04, 2015 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

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_Manetho
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Manetho »

Gadianton wrote:But I think we need some clarity on that last quote from Manetho.

Sorry, but I'm not quite following—what do you want me to clarify?
_Gadianton
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Gadianton »

nothing really, unless you feel like it. I was just saying the quote needed clarifying and so I gave my interpretation of it. there's a lot of cake having and eating in postmodernism.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Tom
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Tom »

Kishkumen wrote:This statement represents all kinds fudging in a context where a responsible scholar should not fudge. A more honest assessment would perhaps read like this:

Joseph Smith was perhaps less biblically literate than some of his family and peers, and was certainly not known for his mastery of Bible. Nevertheless, the evidence shows that he read the Bible seriously in the years leading up to his First Vision, and maybe after. Although he did not own his own Bible before 1829, he had access to his family's Bible. We can be confident in stating, however, that Joseph Smith was certainly not ignorant of the Bible.

Despite the fact that Joseph Smith was biblically aware, the idea that he had a close knowledge of the Apocrypha is debatable to the point of being doubtful. For this reason and others, I disagree with Owen's argument.


That is all Gee really needs to do. The fact that he ignores evidence and rhetorically fudges to the extent that he does is actually a big deal. The man was trained as an historian at one of our country's premier institutions of higher learning. He should know better.

Daniel Peterson made some of the same points as Gee at the recent Interpreter Foundation/BYU Studies conference, Exploring the Complexities in the English Language of the Book of Mormon, which was held on March 14. Following a presentation by BYU professor Nick Frederick titled "'Full of grace, mercy, and truth': Exploring the Complexities of the Presence of the New Testament within the Book of Mormon," Peterson offered some comments (beginning around 35:45).

First, Peterson quoted Lucy Mack Smith's description of her son Joseph as "a boy . . . who had never read the Bible through in his life: he seemed much less inclined to the perusal of books than any of the rest of our children, but far more given to meditation and deep study." Gee quoted this same source. Peterson's comments: "There is certainly nothing in her description of him to suggest the level of mastery of King James biblical text required for the intertextual influences sketched by Dr. Frederick."

Second, Peterson quoted an excerpt from Joseph Smith's 1843 interview with David Nye White: "I opened the Testament promiscuously on these words, in James." Gee also quoted from this source. Peterson said that promiscuously is used here in its "earliest and original sense," citing the Oxford English Dictionary definition of promiscuously as "demonstrating or implying an undiscriminating or an unselective approach; indiscriminate or casual." Peterson's comments: "Again, there is nothing to suggest that the young Joseph Smith was steeped in the King James Bible through long and careful study of it."

Third, Peterson quoted from Alexander Niebaur's 1844 journal: "'his Mother & Br & Sister got Religion, he wanted to get Religion too/ wanted to feel & sho shout like the Rest but/ could feel nothing, opened his Bible the first/ Passage that struck him was' James 1:5." Gee quoted from this source as well.

Peterson stated that Joseph Smith began his dictation of the Book of Mormon in April 1829 and completed it by or before 1 July 1829, adding that Joseph "did this" in Harmony, Pennsylvania, and Fayette, New York," "away from his family and from the family Bible." He then noted that "it was in October 1829" that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery purchased a Bible from E.B. Grandin's bookstore in Palmyra, New York. Gee wrote: "Joseph Smith's own Bible was not purchased until 8 October 1829 when the Book of Mormon was being printed."

Peterson concluded with these comments:
Again, the notion that Joseph was a learned master of the King James Bible during the period of the dictation of the Book of Mormon lacks support in the historical sources. Yet the English text of the Book of Mormon reveals just such mastery. I freely admit that I couldn't have created such a document myself. Accordingly, unless someone can show me otherwise, I see a major challenge here for those who'd dismiss the Book of Mormon as this shallow and hasty creation of a glib frontier conman. Fawn Brodie said that, basically, the Book of Mormon and all of Mormonism started off as a practical joke on Joseph's parents, and it just got out of hand. [audience laughter] That's harder for me to believe than the real story.
“A scholar said he could not read the Book of Mormon, so we shouldn’t be shocked that scholars say the papyri don’t translate and/or relate to the Book of Abraham. Doesn’t change anything. It’s ancient and historical.” ~ Hanna Seariac
_Kishkumen
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Re: John Gee, Historian

Post by _Kishkumen »

Well, Tom, that is disappointing to see.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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