Botched Rescue in Boise

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_Kishkumen
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Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Kishkumen »

It appears that the teachings of such people as Denver Snuffer and Rock Waterman have caused sufficient stir to motivate Church historian Richard Turley and Elder Oaks of the Q12 to hit the road to Boise where they sought to stem the mounting tide of apostasy by instructing the people.

Here is the Mormon Stories recording:

http://mormonstories.org/boise-rescue-oaks-turley/

I had the opportunity to listen to the Boise Rescue on my morning walk, and I have to say that, while impressive sounding on the surface, I found the whole thing rather disappointing. I think it is fair to say that this was the usual non-responsive show of authority and conviction we are used to seeing from the Church.

Granted, I am not the target audience. The people this is targeted at are the sort of folk who are either already on board with everything, or they are wavering and in need of an impressive show of leadership without much in the way of actual substance.

Now, you may think I am being unfair here. After all, the BR sounds like it is oozing with weighty responses. And, indeed, if you are one of Rock Waterman's less informed listeners, you may be reassured that the Brethren have not totally checked out. They did, after all, show up and say stuff because people were upset. If you don't know much about what Denver Snuffer has been saying you might think that being told you don't need to see Jesus in the flesh before you die is a real revelation.

But, what did all of this amount to?

Not terribly much, I'm afraid.

We are assured by the Church historian that there is no way you could have written the Book of Mormon with Joseph Smith's education in less than 90 days time.

Uh, OK. Thanks.

We are told that instances of cribbing from interpolated passages of the New Testament are actually testaments to the authenticity of the Book of Mormon instead of the exact opposite.

We are told that because the apostles have the keys and the authority that means you should not listen to anyone else.

None of this, of course, addresses the myriad problems critics have raised regarding Mormonism in general and the LDS Church in particular.

One of the most telling moments of the whole event, in my opinion, was the use of a picture of an LDS temple as an example of the fruits of God's working through the LDS Church, which is His Church. From one perspective, it just seems so self evident that the wonder of the temple should testify of the truthfulness of the Church. And, yet, I think the use of the picture typifies the ecclesiolatry we see rampant in the LDS Church today. Throw up a picture of a pretty building and you have gone a long way to proving your point because folks love to look at impressive architecture.

Another boner, in my opinion, was the discussion of James Strang as an impostor, who was not, after all, really commissioned by Joseph Smith to be his successor. We really know that the Strang claims were nonsense, so the argument goes, because his church dissolved. I am sure all of those people wondering whether Scientology is false are really relieved to find this out. If they wait long enough, the failure of Scientology, which is inevitable, of course, will settle once and for all the question of the truth of LRH's teachings and his authority from... well, whomever.

And, anyhow, Scientology lacks all those pretty Mormon temples to demonstrate the truthfulness of its work:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Just to give you a small sample of a few of the dusty old shacks waiting to collapse under the weight of the falsehood of Scientology's teachings.[/sarcasm]

I encourage each of you anonymous internet cowards to withstand the logic, evidence, and testimony of Richard Turley, John Dehlin and Elder Oaks, John Dehlin, as they lay waste to your flimsy objections to the truth.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Kishkumen »

Here's one person, named "Jim," who was mightily impressed by the Boise Rescue:

I’m a former apostate and sinner. I once believed in these so called apostates but I have decided to suspend disbelief and turn off my mind to so called history. What is history anyway? It is so distorted and convoluted that we cannot believe it unless those in authority tell us how to describe and define it. Thank you Elder Oakes for setting us straight. I hereby turn over my thinking to the church and you.

Now I know that I must live in the world. So, I will be wise when it comes to the world but I will suspend worldly thinking when I am doing my church callings and attending my required meetings.

P.S. Please tell me how to think at all times. I know I said that I would be wise when I was in the world but its too scary.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Maksutov
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Maksutov »

This is fascinating. Did they consider the Swedish Rescue a success? It looks like a replay here. In that rescue they promised the letters on controversial subjects; now that the letters are here, it's back to the old Satan-waving.

As obviously a fake as Strang was, he diverted a helluvalot of Joseph's followers. That speaks to the credulity of the population involved. If he hadn't been murdered, he might have left a much greater legacy. He had no Brigham Young to carry his dream to a frontier colony that could incubate a new social order.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Maksutov
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Maksutov »

Looking here and there, it appears some of this is in response to a group in the Meridian area that is documented in the website, "To the Remnant", a group linked to by Rock Waterman. One of the leaders is a local chiropractor named Adrian Larsen. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

http://www.totheremnant.com/

Waterman provides some background:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2014/ ... rnoon.html

"Apostle David Bednar has of late been concerned with how Mormonism is often wrongly perceived and misunderstood, and so last August Elder Bednar gave an address at BYU in which he encouraged individual members to flood the internet and social media, with the aim of correcting falsehoods about the church, promoting truth, and boldly testifying of Christ. This is what Adrian Larsen has been doing with his Mormon-themed blog To The Remnant since early summer: correcting falsehoods, promoting truth, and boldly testifying of Christ.

But because Adrian did so, last Sunday a high council was convened in his stake and he was expelled from our society for the sin of apostasy. So was his wife, Tausha, in a bizzare, highly unusual double-excommunication proceeding in which both were tried and sentenced together in the same proceeding. Both had been devoted members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all their lives, yet in one afternoon representatives of that same Church officially declared them to be apostates and pariahs."

Is a new Mormon Reformation sputtering into life? Or a new fundamentalism?
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Kishkumen
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Kishkumen »

Maksutov wrote:This is fascinating. Did they consider the Swedish Rescue a success? It looks like a replay here. In that rescue they promised the letters on controversial subjects; now that the letters are here, it's back to the old Satan-waving.


Well, I think it gets down to the problem of not having satisfactory answers.

Maksutov wrote:As obviously a fake as Strang was, he diverted a helluvalot of Joseph's followers. That speaks to the credulity of the population involved. If he hadn't been murdered, he might have left a much greater legacy. He had no Brigham Young to carry his dream to a frontier colony that could incubate a new social order.


It's an interesting question. One might say that Joseph Smith was an obvious fraud too, and yet that does not keep two serious elderly men with advanced degrees from attempting to use James Strang as a counterexample.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Kishkumen
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Kishkumen »

Maksutov wrote:Looking here and there, it appears some of this is in response to a group in the Meridian area that is documented in the website, "To the Remnant", a group linked to by Rock Waterman. One of the leaders is a local chiropractor named Adrian Larsen. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

http://www.totheremnant.com/

Waterman provides some background:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2014/ ... rnoon.html

"Apostle David Bednar has of late been concerned with how Mormonism is often wrongly perceived and misunderstood, and so last August Elder Bednar gave an address at BYU in which he encouraged individual members to flood the internet and social media, with the aim of correcting falsehoods about the church, promoting truth, and boldly testifying of Christ. This is what Adrian Larsen has been doing with his Mormon-themed blog To The Remnant since early summer: correcting falsehoods, promoting truth, and boldly testifying of Christ.

But because Adrian did so, last Sunday a high council was convened in his stake and he was expelled from our society for the sin of apostasy. So was his wife, Tausha, in a bizzare, highly unusual double-excommunication proceeding in which both were tried and sentenced together in the same proceeding. Both had been devoted members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all their lives, yet in one afternoon representatives of that same Church officially declared them to be apostates and pariahs."

Is a new Mormon Reformation sputtering into life? Or a new fundamentalism?


Wow. OK. Well, thanks for sharing this, Maksutov. This fellow and his spouse were completely off my radar. It just goes to show that authority is the important thing. If you have it, you can speak. If you don't, you'd better watch what you say.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_DrW
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _DrW »

Maksutov wrote:Is a new Mormon Reformation sputtering into life? Or a new fundamentalism?

Probably both. What you have described could be fairly characterized as a bifurcation.

And (as every student of math and science should know) in dynamical systems, a bifurcation is that period of rapid divergence in parameter values that signals (or foretells, if you prefer) the onset of chaos.

And since the LDS Church is nothing if not an ever changing dynamical system - well - you get the point.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Chap
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Chap »

Maksutov wrote:Looking here and there, it appears some of this is in response to a group in the Meridian area that is documented in the website, "To the Remnant", a group linked to by Rock Waterman. One of the leaders is a local chiropractor named Adrian Larsen. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds.

http://www.totheremnant.com/

Waterman provides some background:

http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2014/ ... rnoon.html

"Apostle David Bednar has of late been concerned with how Mormonism is often wrongly perceived and misunderstood, and so last August Elder Bednar gave an address at BYU in which he encouraged individual members to flood the internet and social media, with the aim of correcting falsehoods about the church, promoting truth, and boldly testifying of Christ. This is what Adrian Larsen has been doing with his Mormon-themed blog To The Remnant since early summer: correcting falsehoods, promoting truth, and boldly testifying of Christ.

But because Adrian did so, last Sunday a high council was convened in his stake and he was expelled from our society for the sin of apostasy. So was his wife, Tausha, in a bizzare, highly unusual double-excommunication proceeding in which both were tried and sentenced together in the same proceeding. Both had been devoted members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints all their lives, yet in one afternoon representatives of that same Church officially declared them to be apostates and pariahs."

Is a new Mormon Reformation sputtering into life? Or a new fundamentalism?


Well, I don't think that this excommunication is very mysterious:

To The Remnant wrote:I’m very saddened to even have to bring this up, but here’s a current example of this devilish doctrine, posted just a few days ago on Elder Jeffrey Holland’s Facebook page:

What a terrific time to be alive!

The gospel of Jesus Christ is the most certain, the most secure, the most reliable, and the most rewarding truth on earth and in heaven, in time and in eternity. Nothing—not anything, not anyone, not any influence—will keep this Church from fulfilling its mission and realizing its destiny declared from before the foundation of the world. Ours is that fail-safe, inexorable, indestructible dispensation of the fulness of the gospel. There is no need to be afraid or tentative about the future.

Unlike every other era before us, this dispensation will not experience an institutional apostasy; it will not see a loss of priesthood keys; it will not suffer a cessation of revelation from the voice of Almighty God. Individuals will apostatize or turn a deaf ear to heaven, but never again will the dispensation collectively do so. What a secure thought! What a day in which to live!

—Jeffrey R. Holland, posted May 27, 2015


That’s right—Ye need not fear nor tremble. Enjoy your carnal security! If you just stay on the boat, you will sail inexorably to heaven! Unlike every dispensation before us, we’re chosen to be saved! It’s wonderful! It's destiny! All is well in Zion!

It pains me to point this out, but there’s not a shred of scriptural support for the idea that the LDS church cannot possibly lose revelation, forfeit keys, or fall into apostasy. There is no destiny declared from the foundation of the world for any church organization. There is no scriptural support for the idea that the Gospel and the LDS church are synonyms.

These flattering words come not from scripture, but from men seeking power and gain and control. Notice the bits of golden truth that ornament these false notions. Those who teach such false and vain and foolish doctrines are collectively known as the church of the devil.


It just isn't done to accuse people like Holland of preaching 'devilish doctrine', or 'seeking power and gain and control'.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_Maksutov
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Maksutov »

DrW wrote:
Maksutov wrote:Is a new Mormon Reformation sputtering into life? Or a new fundamentalism?

Probably both. What you have described could be fairly characterized as a bifurcation.

And (as every student of math and science should know) in dynamical systems, a bifurcation is that period of rapid divergence in parameter values that signals (or foretells, if you prefer) the onset of chaos.

And since the LDS Church is nothing if not an ever changing dynamical system - well - you get the point.


It could also be seen as a more biological system subject to mutation and mitosis. :wink:

From my POV, the Protestants often reacted to crazy abusive Catholic institutions and behaviors by coming up with crazy abusive Protestant institutions and behaviors. These folks are following a chiropractor and talking about angelic manifestations. I think I know where this is going. But along the way we'll all learn something, and it's always encouraging to see people express themselves after feeling repressed.
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_Sammy Jankins
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Re: Botched Rescue in Boise

Post by _Sammy Jankins »

Kiskumen wrote:We are assured by the Church historian that there is no way you could have written the Book of Mormon with Joseph Smith's education in less than 90 days time.


The challenge for doubters to personally produce something comparable to The Book of Mormon in 90 days still annoys me every time. Personally no I cannot produce something comparable to The Book of Mormon. I also could not create something comparable to the Lord of the Rings. Not even with a hundred lifetimes. Same goes with any great literature. Same goes with any great works of art. My personal ability has nothing to do with it.

I am also throughly unconvinced by the arguments that it had to be done in 90 days.

So could somebody have done it in an unknown amount of time? Sure. Why not?
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