Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

[_Themis]

In part, because, as Covey said, if I may paraphrase roughly, we see the world not as it is, but as we are.
Joseph said a number of things about why people don't explore and examine further - and encouraged people of faith to do just that.

It's figurative. Again, few analogies are perfect. But everyone has their own blindspots. And most of us are likely not even conscious of our blindspots. (Thus, doubly blind.)

Yet no one can explain how this relates specifically to communication with God.

I, for one, have learned by experience to sit up and take notice when an individual, and more especially a group, mentions that the spirit of God has led them to something or to somewhere. I won't go into detail about such things in a brief post, but by drilling down into what such people have said, I frequently find gems of valuable truth.

And what objective gems of truth have you found? I ask you a number of questions, and as I said earlier about believers avoiding certain topics, you are not disappointing in that you are also avoiding certain topics. How do you determine your sensations are from God and not yourself? In your backing up the car example people gave some very reasonable options including mine of your brain already having some subconscious knowledge that may have caused an impression/thought to pop into your conscious brain.

[_hagoth7]

Interestingly there was a similar example recently in the news. A mother was on her way to the women's session of conference. As she was reversing off her drive she drove over and killed her toddler child who was playing in the garden. In comparison to your example was she, in your opinion:
1. Not listening to the spirit?
2. Not selected for Gods assistance?
(Because for your thoughts and beliefs to be right, it has to be one or the other)

I believe there's a time and a place for everything. Even trials serve a purpose. It's not my place to say when, how, or whether God should intervene, and when he shouldn't. His wisdom and perspective is much greater than mine. One of the men I would consider to be among the most righteous men I have had the privilege of meeting, lost his child to just such an incident while in our ward. He subsequently embraced the man who had run over his child, said it must have been her time to go, and promptly forgave him, encouraging him not to feel bad. I don't know if I have that kind of charity. And I don't know if I could forgive myself if I had caused such a loss. Perhaps God knows that.

[_hagoth7]

Selection bias? Has there ever been a time when you should have stopped doing something and didn't get any kind of impression that you should stop?

? Why stop doing something for absolutely no reason? I usually only stop doing something once it is completed. Or when something more important comes up. How about you?

Sorry, perhaps I should have been clearer. Has there ever been a time when you should have stopped doing something because it turned out that the end result was bad? And on these occasions you didn't get any kind of impression that you should stop?

To be candid, the only things I can think of that might fit that bill is that I've been in two car accidents, neither of which was my fault, and I didn't have an inkling either time that I should pull over and stop. Broke my hand in one, and subsequently lost a well-paying job. Wasn't injured in the other, but lost a few hundred dollars in part because of it. In hindsight, however, now that I can see the bigger picture of what happened during those periods, I believe the outcome was bordering on inconsequential, if not worthwhile.

I'll add another event to illustrate. When I was young, my family and I were canoeing in a mountain lake in Alberta. There was a glacier extending over one edge of the lake, forming a considerably sized ice cave over the water. We decided to paddle under, and were there enjoying the beauty of it all for a few minutes when one of my brothers suddenly said he felt very strongly that we shouldn't be there. My father said something to the effect that that was the kind of impression you don't ignore, and we quickly paddled out, landed our canoe on the nearby shore, and started hiking up the mountain. We hadn't gotten far from the canoe when we heard a loud noise behind us. We looked, and the portion of the glacier that had been forming the ice cave had collapsed into the water. Had we remained, we would have been crushed, and drowned. I readily acknowledge God's hand in such things.

I don't know why he chose to spare us, and at times doesn't intervene for others. Perhaps one day I will know. But I know he spared us that day.

What about all of the accidents that happen every day all over the world? Where is the spirit when he's really needed? MIA!

I can't speak to them. I would simply have to conclude that God allows some things to happen, and He allows men to allow other things to happen. In the end, I believe everything will be equitable. Again, are you saying the fireman never went up the ladder?
As I said before....

I didn't say, nor do I believe, that it is God's plan is to stop every injury and mishap on the planet.

I'll repeat again what I said to IHAQ. If a fireman rescues a woman from a burning building, and a short time later, another woman dies, does that somehow mean the fireman never went up that initial ladder? That seems to be what you are arguing, and I don't quite follow that kind of dismissive attempt at logic.

I'm not suggesting that "somehow mean the fireman never went up that initial ladder". What I'm suggesting is that you seem to be ascribing a reason to something without evidence.

You're saying God had no hand in it - which is essentially saying the fireman never went up the ladder. I'm simply attesting that the evidence is more than sufficient for my needs. If it doesn't serve your purposes, fine.

Further question: Has there ever been a time when you got some kind of impression that you should have stopped doing something, but you continued and it turned out that the end result was good?

I can't think of such an example, because my parents taught me early on not to ignore such impressions. They were and are effective teachers.

It seems to me that the spirit you speak of is extremely fickle, and may help with something trivial (according to what I hear people say) while completely ignoring things that are much more important.

What would you qualify as fickle, and what would you qualify as trivial?

by the way, the next time I see someone who seems to be arguing something I disagree with, can I quote you and refer to it as: "that kind of dismissive attempt at logic"?

You may quote me however you wish. Are you saying it wasn't dismissive? And that it wasn't flawed logic? If so, I'm willing to be corrected. (And if I'm proven in error on saying such a thing, I will readily apologize.)

Also, in your "fireman" example, I think that the corresponding "spirit" case would be more like a woman who just managed to stumble out of a burning building, and later said that she felt guided, but there was no sign of a fireman anywhere near the building.

I firmly believe God saves people. He is the fireman I allude to. Saving people is his purpose. Whether that happens in this life, or in the next, isn't as consequential as that he does it.

[_Themis]

I'll add another event to illustrate. When I was young, my family and I were canoeing in a mountain lake in Alberta. There was a glacier extending over one edge of the lake, forming a considerably sized ice cave over the water. We decided to paddle under, and were there enjoying the beauty of it all for a few minutes when one of my brothers suddenly said he felt very strongly that we shouldn't be there. My father said something to the effect that that was the kind of impression you don't ignore, and we quickly paddled out, landed our canoe on the nearby shore, and started hiking up the mountain. We hadn't gotten far from the canoe when we heard a loud noise behind us. We looked, and the portion of the glacier that had been forming the ice cave had collapsed into the water. Had we remained, we would have been crushed, and drowned. I readily acknowledge God's hand in such things.

I don't know why he chose to spare us, and at times doesn't intervene for others. Perhaps one day I will know. But I know he spared us that day.

I understand you believe it, but you don't know it. It's an obvious dangerous place to be so it is reasonable that idea popped into his head giving him a very bad feeling. How do you know it had to be from God?

[_hagoth7]

I'll add another event to illustrate. When I was young, my family and I were canoeing in a mountain lake in Alberta. There was a glacier extending over one edge of the lake, forming a considerably sized ice cave over the water. We decided to paddle under, and were there enjoying the beauty of it all for a few minutes when one of my brothers suddenly said he felt very strongly that we shouldn't be there. My father said something to the effect that that was the kind of impression you don't ignore, and we quickly paddled out, landed our canoe on the nearby shore, and started hiking up the mountain. We hadn't gotten far from the canoe when we heard a loud noise behind us. We looked, and the portion of the glacier that had been forming the ice cave had collapsed into the water. Had we remained, we would have been crushed, and drowned. I readily acknowledge God's hand in such things.

I don't know why he chose to spare us, and at times doesn't intervene for others. Perhaps one day I will know. But I know he spared us that day.

I understand you believe it, but you don't know it.

I know it sufficiently. And I accept it and am grateful for it. I would suggest there is a fair amount we both have yet to learn about spiritual knowledge.

It's an obvious dangerous place to be so it is reasonable that idea popped into his head giving him a very bad feeling.

People go in ice caves all the time, and most come out unscathed. What's so obvious about the danger? And that specific one in Alberta had likely been there for months - just sitting there, as solid as can be. Why then would any of us presume of our own that it was in that very same hour suddenly an unsafe place to be?

How do you know it had to be from God?

Well, I would choose to give God the credit even if my sibling hadn't described the impression. But it was described in some detail. When you experience an impression from the Spirit of God frequently enough, you learn to recognize it and act on it.

I understand you currently prefer to write such things off to selection bias, or confirmation bias, or random prions firing in the brain. But I know from a bit of experience and observation that God does guide people through the Spirit. That doesn't mean people will never experience setback, disappointment, or pain. But it does mean that overall, if they seek for it, they will know that they have a loving Father who cares - and who sent Another https://www.lds.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/2-n ... lang=eng#8 to bring us back to Him. What grand theory or explanation is more important than that?

[_Themis]

I know it sufficiently. And I accept it and am grateful for it. I would suggest there is a fair amount we both have yet to learn about spiritual knowledge.

Perhaps, but I am asking how you know something is from God which you have asserted knowing. So far you haven't shown you know, but just believe.

People go in ice caves all the time, and most come out unscathed. What's so obvious about the danger? And that specific one in Alberta had likely been there for months - just sitting there, as solid as can be. Why then would any of us presume of our own that it was in that very same hour suddenly an unsafe place to be?

You said is was a glacier on the edge of a lake. Do I really need to say more. Most people understand these are dangerous areas to be since glaciers are moving and small caves on the waters edge are very temporary. So it is very resonable for a person who is somewhat ignorant of these environments to have this idea pop into their head. The usual response to this thought is have a bad feeling since you now see a possible danger to your life. This is a common thought and feeling people have. So why should we discount it as a reasonable possibility. Even many members would not think God was the one communicating.

Well, I would choose to give God the credit even if my sibling hadn't described the impression. But it was described in some detail. When you experience an impression from the Spirit of God frequently enough, you learn to recognize it and act on it.

But you haven't established these impressions are from God. We tend to forget the misses. Experience of having many of them still does not establish a divine source.

I understand you currently prefer to write such things off to selection bias, or confirmation bias, or random prions firing in the brain. But I know from a bit of experience and observation that God does guide people through the Spirit. That doesn't mean people will never experience setback, disappointment, or pain. But it does mean that overall, if they seek for it, they will know that they have a loving Father who cares - and who sent Another https://www.lds.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/2-n ... lang=eng#8 to bring us back to Him. What grand theory or explanation is more important than that?

I prefer not to ignore reasonable possibilities. Selection and confirmation bias are real things, and if you are guilty of it you likely will not see it. When one really considers these as possibilities they tend to be more open to other evidences. This happened to me as a believer. It was that state that allowed me to see the church was not true when I came across evidence against the Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, etc. Most members will not allow themselves to really be open to these possibilities, but I know some believers who do.

[_malkie]

I didn't say, nor do I believe, that it is God's plan is to stop every injury and mishap on the planet.

I'll repeat again what I said to IHAQ. If a fireman rescues a woman from a burning building, and a short time later, another woman dies, does that somehow mean the fireman never went up that initial ladder? That seems to be what you are arguing, and I don't quite follow that kind of dismissive attempt at logic.

I'm not suggesting that "somehow mean the fireman never went up that initial ladder". What I'm suggesting is that you seem to be ascribing a reason to something without evidence.

You're saying God had no hand in it - which is essentially saying the fireman never went up the ladder. I'm simply attesting that the evidence is more than sufficient for my needs. If it doesn't serve your purposes, fine.

Not quite - what I'm saying is that there is no evidence of the existence of the fireman. If that is sufficient for your needs, then I have no argument with that. For my purposes I would have no use for such a god.

It seems to me that the spirit you speak of is extremely fickle, and may help with something trivial (according to what I hear people say) while completely ignoring things that are much more important.

What would you qualify as fickle, and what would you qualify as trivial?

Fickle in that different people are treated quite differently. You see that (I believe) as god not having to rescue everyone, and again, if you're happy with that then good for you.
Trivial - helping people find lost keys (and therefore being inconvenienced for a while) compared with children being horribly abused, and/or dying painful deaths from hunger and disease.

Also, in your "fireman" example, I think that the corresponding "spirit" case would be more like a woman who just managed to stumble out of a burning building, and later said that she felt guided, but there was no sign of a fireman anywhere near the building.

I firmly believe God saves people. He is the fireman I allude to. Saving people is his purpose. Whether that happens in this life, or in the next, isn't as consequential as that he does it.

And I'm still saying that the fireman is not in evidence. And that there's even less evidence that there's a fireman saving people in a next life.

All in all, I still say that for me the universe in which god is so arbitrary and fickle, and apparently tied up in trivia, is indistinguishable from the universe in which god does not exist - any of the gods I've ever heard of.

[Guest]

Perhaps, but I am asking how you know something is from God which you have asserted knowing. So far you haven't shown you know, but just believe.

Perhaps I may return to that in a bit.

People go in ice caves all the time, and most come out unscathed. What's so obvious about the danger? And that specific one in Alberta had likely been there for months - just sitting there, as solid as can be. Why then would any of us presume of our own that it was in that very same hour suddenly an unsafe place to be?

You said is was a glacier on the edge of a lake. Do I really need to say more. Most people understand these are dangerous areas to be since glaciers are moving...

? Perhaps you've never heard of the word "glacial" to imply almost-imperceptibly slow movement. It's like watching grass grow. Straight from the dictionary: "suggestive of the very slow movement of glaciers <progress on the bill has been glacial>" Glacial, by definition, means very slow.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/glacial

Why then assume imminent danger? Feel free to dismiss the experience if you prefer. But I don't think your reply addresses it head on.

Even many members would not think God was the one communicating.

Not if they heard my sibling describe the impression. And not if they heard about it in context. And not if they considered this cautionary reminder, as many likely would: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... ang=eng#20

But you haven't established these impressions are from God.

Accomplishing that for you goes far beyond my pay grade. Such things would be between you and God.

[_Themis]

? Perhaps you've never heard of the word "glacial" to imply almost-imperceptibly slow movement. It's like watching grass grow. Straight from the dictionary: "suggestive of the very slow movement of glaciers <progress on the bill has been glacial>" Glacial, by definition, means very slow.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/glacial

Why then assume imminent danger? Feel free to dismiss the experience if you prefer. But I don't think your reply addresses it head on.

I know them well, and yes it is a dangerous place inside a cave that has been hollowed out by lake water. It is a temporary situation. People even in a cave made of rock may feel uneasy about the possibility of rock fall. Ice on the edge of it's existence is far greater. Why is it unreasonable that many people would get an impression of danger? People do get killed this way, and many will get an impression even though it does not happen. Is it that hard for our brain to see possible dangers? Does God have to be the one to always give this impression? Curious what was the name of the lake you were on?

Not if they heard my sibling describe the impression. And not if they heard about it in context. And not if they considered this cautionary reminder, as many likely would: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testa ... ang=eng#20

I'm sure many if not most would agree, but I know many will be skeptical because they understand a little of how the mind works. They won't generally say anything though.

Accomplishing that goes far beyond my pay grade. Such things would be between you and God.

Your examples show you haven't really established it. All it does is show how people jump to there preferred explanation and one that you were taught to do. Other ones tend to be ignored. How is your interpretation right and others who have similar experiences not right when they think non-divine sources can explain the amazing experience. One of the problems is that people are very ignorant of selection bias, memory alteration, and so many other factors that go into these experiences. We can get so attached to what we want that we go so easily from belief to feelings of certainty.

[_I have a question]

I'll add another event to illustrate. When I was young, my family and I were canoeing in a mountain lake in Alberta. There was a glacier extending over one edge of the lake, forming a considerably sized ice cave over the water. We decided to paddle under, and were there enjoying the beauty of it all for a few minutes when one of my brothers suddenly said he felt very strongly that we shouldn't be there. My father said something to the effect that that was the kind of impression you don't ignore, and we quickly paddled out, landed our canoe on the nearby shore, and started hiking up the mountain. We hadn't gotten far from the canoe when we heard a loud noise behind us. We looked, and the portion of the glacier that had been forming the ice cave had collapsed into the water. Had we remained, we would have been crushed, and drowned. I readily acknowledge God's hand in such things.

I don't know why he chose to spare us, and at times doesn't intervene for others. Perhaps one day I will know. But I know he spared us that day.

I understand you believe it, but you don't know it. It's an obvious dangerous place to be so it is reasonable that idea popped into his head giving him a very bad feeling. How do you know it had to be from God?

God's intervention through use of the Holy Spirit seems to happen with the same regularity and predictability as common, random chance and luck. In other words, wether you pray for the Spirit's influence or not, God will still do what He thinks is best regardless of those special pleadings.

I wonder why God wanted this Bishop to lose his car and end up in a coma?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ckers.html

Even trials serve a purpose.

Perhaps God figured his family needed the trial, right Hagoth?

If God switched off His TV set and went to bed, leaving us to our own devices susceptible to confirmation bias, memory alteration etc. In what discernible way would humanity notice a difference?