Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

Post by _Themis »

I have a question wrote:God's intervention through use of the Holy Spirit seems to happen with the same regularity and predictability as common, random chance and luck. In other words, wether you pray for the Spirit's influence or not, God will still do what He thinks is best regardless of those special pleadings.


If God were to give preferential treatment to LDS or to groups that are devoted to him we should see this statistically. If we don't then are these impressions given to everyone regardless of belief or righteousness? If so this creates a problem with healing's with the priesthood as well as those who listen to their impressions but don't attribute them to God. If they don't, then how does someone like hagoth7 know his are from God?
42
_hagoth7
_Emeritus
Posts: 946
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:25 am

Re: Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

Post by _hagoth7 »

I have a question wrote:God's intervention through use of the Holy Spirit seems to happen with the same regularity and predictability...
I didn't say it was like clockwork. It happens according to God's will, not man's.

I have a questioin wrote:In other words, wether you pray for the Spirit's influence or not, God will still do what He thinks is best regardless of those special pleadings.
Prayer doesn't by any means force God's hand, if that's what you're asking. As to doing what He thinks is best, do you treat your children any differently than that?

I have a question wrote:I wonder why God wanted this Bishop to lose his car and end up in a coma?

Why assume that God actually wanted that specific event to happen? Tragedies happen from time to time. That's part of life. I'm not of the opinion that God causes most of them. Some just happen. Unkind or careless people happen to cause others.

hagoth7 wrote:Even trials serve a purpose.

I have a question wrote:Perhaps God figured his family needed the trial, right Hagoth?
I didn't say God caused that man's tragedy. But how we each choose to respond to trials is part of why we're here on earth.

I have a question wrote:If God switched off His TV set and went to bed, leaving us to our own devices susceptible to confirmation bias, memory alteration etc. In what discernible way would humanity notice a difference?

From that question, I take it you haven't finished your vegetables...
:smile:
Last edited by Guest on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joseph Smith: "I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/alm ... ang=eng#20
Red pill: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/New Testament/acts/ ... ang=eng#10
Blue pill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

Post by _Chap »

hagoth7 wrote:
I have a question wrote:If God switched off His TV set and went to bed, leaving us to our own devices susceptible to confirmation bias, memory alteration etc. In what discernible way would humanity notice a difference?


From that question, I take it you haven't finished your vegetables...
:smile:


So someone asks hagoth7 the killer question about supposedly unpredictable divine intervention in the world - how would the world as we perceive it now be any different if there was in fact no divine intervention at all?

Hagoth7's answer: a silly remark and a smiley.

Yup, he's got nuthin'.
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_hagoth7
_Emeritus
Posts: 946
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:25 am

Re: Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

Post by _hagoth7 »

Themis wrote:If God were to give preferential treatment to LDS or to groups that are devoted to him we should see this statistically.

? What kind of preferential treatment would you look to measure statistically?
The rain falls on the just and the unjust.
In many things, mankind is blessed equally.

Themis wrote:If we don't then are these impressions given to everyone regardless of belief or righteousness? If so this creates a problem...as well as those who listen to their impressions but don't attribute them to God. If they don't, then how does someone like hagoth7 know his are from God?

Great questions. I'll provide a third example. Which is somewhat of a triple example, since it includes three impressions that eventually corroborated one another. More importantly, it perhaps more fully answers your question: "how does someone like hagoth7 know his are from God?"

When I was a teenager, I got the distinct impression that I needed to visit the local Seventh Day Adventist church in my neighborhood. At first, the impression seemed unusual enough (how many introverted LDS teenagers feel comfortable wandering unescorted into other churches?) that the whole thing made me hesitate. But the impression stuck with me, so I finally took a Saturday and went there. Once there, after attending a pleasant service, I got a similar, more distinct impression, that I needed to ask for books that would tell me more about their faith. They insisted repeatedly that the Bible was the only book that described their faith - perhaps in reaction to the growing anti-sect witch hunts (if I may use that phrase) that were going on in the area at the time. So after the place emptied out, I left wondering why I was supposed to be there, and what in the world I was supposed to be doing asking about books that didn't exist. (This was before the internet, Amazon, and the like).

Later, while on my mission, I knocked on the door of a woman who happened to be another Adventist. We had a relatively brief discussion at the door, then she asked us to wait for a minute, vanished briefly, and returned with a book. She opened the book to a picture of two timelines, one spreading from 458/57 BC on the left to 1844 AD on the right - a 2300-year timeline from the prophet Daniel. (For some time, Christians of many stripes believed that Daniel's 2300-year timeline would be fulfilled in the 19th century.)

The second timeline spanned from 458/57 BC to 34 AD - a 490-year timeline also from the prophet Daniel. Under the 34 AD termination of that timeline was a picture of Stephen being stoned to death while having a vision of the Father and the Son, somewhat as described in Acts.

Early on, I noticed the picture of Stephen being stoned. Then I looked to the right-hand side of the larger timeline, and noticed a general picture underneath the 1844 date. At that juncture, I got a very powerful impression - that I immediately recognized was from the Spirit - that Joseph Smith's martyrdom in 1844 is what actually belonged on that chart, a prophetic match to Stephen's death.

Again, these were three separate impressions. The first two were unusual, and while memorable, initially made no sense. But corroborated by the third, later impression, the pieces finally started to fall into place, and I began to gain a glimpse of how all three of those impressions were guiding me to something of considerable personal value.

This is part of what sparked over a decade-long study of Bible prophecy, the Millerite movement, and the Babi/Baha'i movement (19th-century Islamic movements which also believed and still believe that 1844 is a prophetic date).

(At this juncture, it would be nice to have someone describe with clarity how to recognize the spirit....since perhaps that hasn't been addressed here yet.)

I have written two books about my interactions with Adventists and the like. One addresses the prophecies in Daniel, and what people of various faiths have said about them, and how timelines in Daniel foretell Christ's first ministry, and events in the later Restoration.
http://candlestickstudios.com/files/184 ... ecy.pdf#10
(That link starts you at chapter two, which is where the few of those who might be interested might best be suited to start. If you prefer to back up a few pages, feel free to start at chapter 1 if you prefer.)

(The second book about 1844 in prophecy addresses the prophecies of the Book of Revelation, and what people of various faiths have said about them, and how timelines in that book foretell events in the Restoration. I used to have that online, and will likely put it back up there in the foreseeable future.)

So in answer to your question, such things, among numerous others, are how I know that such impressions are from God.
Joseph Smith: "I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/alm ... ang=eng#20
Red pill: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/New Testament/acts/ ... ang=eng#10
Blue pill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU
_hagoth7
_Emeritus
Posts: 946
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:25 am

Re: Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

Post by _hagoth7 »

Chap wrote:So someone asks hagoth7 the killer question about supposedly unpredictable divine intervention in the world - how would the world as we perceive it now be any different if there was in fact no divine intervention at all?

Hagoth7's answer: a silly remark and a smiley.

If you'd go back and look at my first reference to eating vegetables, you might begin to see what I meant - it was an encouragement for that individual to actually address the first impression I had described, rather than simply dismiss it. It wasn't silly. It was instead a friendly reply. There is a distinct difference.

Chap wrote:Yup, he's got nuthin'.

Say what you wish. Although I don't know how to play poker, I am somewhat experienced at Rook, and I am holding a reasonably good hand. :smile:

Difference being, we're actually not playing against each other. The way I see it, we're all sitting on the same side of the table.
Joseph Smith: "I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/alm ... ang=eng#20
Red pill: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/New Testament/acts/ ... ang=eng#10
Blue pill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU
_Chap
_Emeritus
Posts: 14190
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:23 am

Re: Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

Post by _Chap »

hagoth7 wrote:
Chap wrote:So someone asks hagoth7 the killer question about supposedly unpredictable divine intervention in the world - how would the world as we perceive it now be any different if there was in fact no divine intervention at all?

Hagoth7's answer: a silly remark and a smiley.

If you'd go back and look at my first reference to eating vegetables, you might begin to see what I meant - it was an encouragement for that individual to actually address the first impression I had described, rather than simply dismiss it. It wasn't silly. It was instead a friendly reply. There is a distinct difference.

Chap wrote:Yup, he's got nuthin'.

Say what you wish. Although I don't know how to play poker, I am somewhat experienced at Rook, and I am holding a reasonably good hand. :smile:

Difference being, we're actually not playing against each other. The way I see it, we're all sitting on the same side of the table.


So, could you answer the question, please? You don't need to write an essay - just tell us whether a normal person of no particular religious allegiance would be able to tell the difference between a world in which some entity resembling the deity you believe in answers prayers in the way you think he/she/it does, and a world where no deity does so.

To save you time, I'll say that if your answer translates into "It only looks different through spiritual eyes", that translates into my language as "I got nuthin' ".
Zadok:
I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

Post by _I have a question »

hagoth7 wrote:
I have a question wrote:I wonder why God wanted this Bishop to lose his car and end up in a coma?

Why assume that God actually wanted that specific event to happen? Tragedies happen from time to time. That's part of life. I'm not of the opinion that God causes most of them. Some just happen. Unkind or careless people happen to cause others.


I agree.
But if tragedies can simply be ascribed as "part of life" then so can good fortune. Good fortune just happens. It's the perspectives we retrospectively apply that determines wether we acknowledge God's hand in the event or not. And that is where confirmation bias runs rife.

I have a question wrote:God's intervention through use of the Holy Spirit seems to happen with the same regularity and predictability...

I didn't say it was like clockwork. It happens according to God's will, not man's.


I disagree. God's intervention happens when man says it happens. When man looks back and decides that the particular good fortune or learning experience was a result of a divine guiding hand rather than simply "part of life". It happens according to man's will explicitly, not God's.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

Post by _I have a question »

hagoth7 wrote:
Chap wrote:So someone asks hagoth7 the killer question about supposedly unpredictable divine intervention in the world - how would the world as we perceive it now be any different if there was in fact no divine intervention at all?

Hagoth7's answer: a silly remark and a smiley.

If you'd go back and look at my first reference to eating vegetables, you might begin to see what I meant - it was an encouragement for that individual to actually address the first impression I had described, rather than simply dismiss it. It wasn't silly. It was instead a friendly reply. There is a distinct difference.

Chap wrote:Yup, he's got nuthin'.

Say what you wish. Although I don't know how to play poker, I am somewhat experienced at Rook, and I am holding a reasonably good hand. :smile:

Difference being, we're actually not playing against each other. The way I see it, we're all sitting on the same side of the table.


I've been back through the thread and looked for a reference from you in a post to me that mentions eating vegetables. And I cannot find one. Please show me where you've addressed me with a reference to eating vegetables and I will respond. If your referencing the one where you ask me about finishing eating my vegetables...you're gonna have to clarify what the comment means or refers to, because you've lost me....
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_DrW
_Emeritus
Posts: 7222
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 2:57 am

Re: Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

Post by _DrW »

Ludwigm wrote:Sorry, but I have to quote myself!
I wrote:
Arthur C. Clarke called God a hypothetical entity and said, "early in the next millennium the rise of statistical theology would prove that there is no supernatural intervention in human affairs. Nor does the 'problem of evil' exist; it is an inevitable consequence of the bell-shaped curve of normal distribution."

Arthur C. Clarke
in his book, 'The songs of distant Earth' (which is laid in 39 century...)
wrote:
( ... Around 2050, members of one religious group ...)
- In support of their faith, they marshaled an immense array of horrible facts from history and zoology. I think they must have been rather sick people, because they seemed to take a morbid delight in collecting such material.
( ... another group, their rivals ...)
- They collected equal numbers of counterexamples - the wonderful things that had happened, time and again, to save devout believers from catastrophe.
...
- What was statistical theology?
...
- By the twenty-first century, the new information technologies and methods of statistical analysis as well as a wider understanding of probability theory allowed it to be settled.
- It took a few decades for the answers to come in, and a few more before they were accepted by virtually all intelligent men: Bad things happened just as often as good; as had long been suspected, the universe simply obeyed the laws of mathematical probability. Certainly there was no sign of any supernatural intervention, either for good or for ill.

Great post, Ludwig.

After reading it, I was inspired to write a post referring to Arthur C. Clark over on Don Bradley's A Clash of Differing Opinions thread.

Thank you.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_hagoth7
_Emeritus
Posts: 946
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:25 am

Re: Why is the spirit impossible to describe?

Post by _hagoth7 »

Themis wrote:Does God have to be the one to always give this impression?

No. Joseph taught that impressions can come from one of three sources. But when lives are spared, or something good results, you can bet I'm going to choose to give God credit.

Themis wrote: Curious what was the name of the lake you were on?

I don't know. But I'll be with one of my older brothers tomorrow, and he may have remembered the name of the lake.

Themis wrote:One of the problems is that people are very ignorant of selection bias, memory alteration, and so many other factors that go into these experiences. We can get so attached to what we want that we go so easily from belief to feelings of certainty.
Understood. Such bias occurs among believers, doubters, and those who are standing in the middle not sure what to think.

That brings me back to a question asked by someone earlier...perhaps it was you:

After reflecting again on the question of whether I had ever failed to act on an impression of the spirit without any result, I did some further thought, and I have to correct my original answer of "no". There was a time several years back when I had the distinct impression I needed to do something for my own benefit, and that a significant reward, of which I had a clear inkling, was being extended, and I held back for very personal reasons that I won't go into here. It was perhaps the strongest impressions I have ever had. And I know that I either lost or delayed blessings in the process. God knows full well what I was going through at that time, so I'll let him be the judge on my failure to act.
Joseph Smith: "I don't blame any one for not believing my history. If I had not experienced what I have, I would not have believed it myself."
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/Book of Mormon/alm ... ang=eng#20
Red pill: https://www.lds.org/scriptures/New Testament/acts/ ... ang=eng#10
Blue pill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NNOrp_83RU
Post Reply