Stop Saying That We?????ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _Kishkumen »

Sammy Jankins wrote:I'm not sure what to make of this. Sure every organization that markets itself engages in hyperbole and is sometimes less than completely honest. But if they were engaged in it conciously would we ever think to excuse them?
Say there was a corporation where the CEO had said that "sometimes there is a temptation to tell everything, whether it sells the product or not, but some things are true that are not very useful." Is concious organizational deception so par for the course the Mormon leaders should be excused?


I wasn't sure what to make of it either, at first. It seemed like a shift from blame the victim to don't blame the perpetrator. Listening to a podcast with the Givenses, I was reminded that the leadership of the LDS Church, more particularly in the early 20th century, but even today, is closer to the principals of LDS history than most of us are. Question the veracity of Joseph Smith or Martin Harris (Elder Dallin Harris Oaks, anyone?) and you are questioning the character of the very ancestors whose legacy gives these leaders privilege and a strong sense of identity. It takes an unusually cool headed person to handle that well. I confess that I chafe at the assumption that my ancestor was somehow responsible for the massacre at Fountain Green because he was eager to get to SLC to see his sons, who had just arrived from England. As if this were more than reasonable inference. No one survived to explain why it is those four men camped at Fountain Green. Some historians have offered different, reasonable explanations. But, in the end the LDS object lesson became "look what happens when you don't obey the priesthood leader." No wonder people take every last mumbling of the president as the word of God regarding double-pierced ears or what have you.

In any case, it is easy to forget how complicated the stakes are on LDS historical questions.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Sammy Jankins
_Emeritus
Posts: 1864
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:56 am

Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _Sammy Jankins »

I have a question wrote:Perhaps Volkswagon Executives will try that defence...


There is a temptation to tell everything. Whether it helps the quarterly profits or not. Somethings that are true are not very useful.

As IHAQ pointed out this isn't just another organization. It's a religion that advocates for honesty. It's an organization that has leaders prying to the most private personal details of a young persons life and expecting honesty. I hold them to their own standards. I expect honesty from them and I hold them responsible for the concious intent to deceive.
And even if the majority of organizations have leaders who advocate for intentional dishonesty I don't think that excuses them.
_Kishkumen
_Emeritus
Posts: 21373
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 10:00 pm

Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _Kishkumen »

Sammy Jankins wrote:As IHAQ pointed out this isn't just another organization. It's a religion that advocates for honesty. It's an organization that has leaders prying to the most private personal details of a young persons life and expecting honesty. I hold them to their own standards. I expect honesty from them and I hold them responsible for the concious intent to deceive.


AMEN.

This is my big issue. Yes, big organizations work to survive and thrive in ways that do not accord with individual ethical demands, but this becomes especially pernicious when an organization's claims are absolute. The LDS Church claims to be the Kingdom of God on Earth, as any endowed person well knows. People are routinely taught that a priesthood leader acting in his stewardship is God's voice for the person under that stewardship. The upshot is that the LDS Church implicitly claims to be God. God demands your obedience as he did of Abraham. No matter how immoral the command, if God extends it, it is the individual's requirement to follow on threat of damnation.

Just look at how Joseph convinced women to become his wives.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _I have a question »

Sammy Jankins wrote:
I have a question wrote:Perhaps Volkswagon Executives will try that defence...


There is a temptation to tell everything. Whether it helps the quarterly profits or not. Somethings that are true are not very useful.

As IHAQ pointed out this isn't just another organization. It's a religion that advocates for honesty. It's an organization that has leaders prying to the most private personal details of a young persons life and expecting honesty. I hold them to their own standards. I expect honesty from them and I hold them responsible for the concious intent to deceive.
And even if the majority of organizations have leaders who advocate for intentional dishonesty I don't think that excuses them.


Remember...

We can always trust the living prophets. Their teachings reflect the will of the Lord, who declared: “What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same” (D&C 1:38).

Our greatest safety lies in strictly following the word of the Lord given through His prophets, particularly the current President of the Church. The Lord warns that those who ignore the words of the living prophets will fall (see D&C 1:14-16). He promises great blessings to those who follow the President of the Church:

“Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me;

https://www.lds.org/topics/prophets?lang=eng

...except when we can't.
And except when their knowledge is limited, which it is (apparently) on many gospel truths.

From the same link:
living prophets will always teach the standards of God.

...except when they don't.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_I have a question
_Emeritus
Posts: 9749
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:01 am

Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _I have a question »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sammy Jankins wrote:As IHAQ pointed out this isn't just another organization. It's a religion that advocates for honesty. It's an organization that has leaders prying to the most private personal details of a young persons life and expecting honesty. I hold them to their own standards. I expect honesty from them and I hold them responsible for the concious intent to deceive.


AMEN.

This is my big issue. Yes, big organizations work to survive and thrive in ways that do not accord with individual ethical demands, but this becomes especially pernicious when an organization's claims are absolute. The LDS Church claims to be the Kingdom of God on Earth, as any endowed person well knows. People are routinely taught that a priesthood leader acting in his stewardship is God's voice for the person under that stewardship. The upshot is that the LDS Church implicitly claims to be God. God demands your obedience as he did of Abraham. No matter how immoral the command, if God extends it, it is the individual's requirement to follow on threat of damnation.

Just look at how Joseph convinced women to become his wives.


“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)

https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fou ... t?lang=eng

*ahem* Priesthood Ban.
“When we are confronted with evidence that challenges our deeply held beliefs we are more likely to reframe the evidence than we are to alter our beliefs. We simply invent new reasons, new justifications, new explanations. Sometimes we ignore the evidence altogether.” (Mathew Syed 'Black Box Thinking')
_CaliforniaKid
_Emeritus
Posts: 4247
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 8:47 am

Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

To be honest, I was mostly just trolling both sides in this debate. I wanted to see if I'd get more comments if I wrote something a little more wrongheaded. (And the answer is yes, by the way. Suddenly I understand the secret to Dan Peterson's success.)

I do think people are basically products of biology and environment, and most of the Twelve have had perverse training not only as LDS missionaries but also as lawyers and businessmen. So there's a sense in which I don't really believe in "fault," not for anyone. But I also believe that no matter where immoral behaviors come from, they must be challenged and corrected. So I'm not really willing to let Church leaders off the hook, at the end of the day. I mostly wanted to tweak everyone's nose a bit and force us all to engage in some self-reflection about our own culpability in all this.
_Sethbag
_Emeritus
Posts: 6855
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:52 am

Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _Sethbag »

While I am uncomfortable giving church leaders a pass because "the institution made me do it," I think Chris's paper offers up a far more damaging and scathing critique than we've really acknowledged here: the church institution itself is corrupt to the core, and simply disproves itself as the vehicle by which any reasonable God, not least the God preached by Mormonism, would choose to do his/her/its important work of communicating his/her/its plan for us.

People will excuse people for making a mistake.

"He was speaking as a man."
"He made a mistake. We all make mistakes."
"He spoke according to the light and knowledge he had at the time. Now we know more."

What people should not excuse is an organization which, as an institution, fosters a culture of dishonesty in matters that bear on evidence that the institution really is, or really is not, what it claims to be (or any other matter).

What does it say that the church has to, over decades or now even centuries, foster a culture of deceipt and dishonesty relating to its status as the true instrument through which God communicates with humanity, in order both to make it easier for members to continue belief in it, and also to attract new adherents?
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
_grindael
_Emeritus
Posts: 6791
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:15 am

Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _grindael »

THIS is not INTENTIONAL DECEPTION :question: :

After Joseph’s initial work on his history in 1838-39, Willard Richards (who was appointed Church Historian in 1842) did a substantial amount of work before Joseph died and had added over 600 pages to volumes A-1 and B-1 of what would become Joseph’s Manuscript History. After Joseph died Richards began compiling what were later called “Draft Notes” for the history instead of directly writing into the Manuscript Volumes. Thomas Bullock would later take Richards’ notes and draft them into the final version of the Manuscript History. By the end of 1845, because of deteriorating health, Richards began dictating Joseph’s history to Bullock who compiled it as the rough draft, and later into the final version.

By the beginning of 1846 they had reached the date of 28 February, 1843. The project was then suspended as the Church moved west to the Utah Territory. Richards again picked up the Draft History in 1853, but due to ill health he only wrote a couple of lines. He died in early 1854.

In April of 1854 George Albert Smith was sustained as the new Church Historian. Two years later, Smith wrote to Wilford Woodruff,

On the 10th April 1854, I commenced to perform the duties of Historian by taking up the History of Joseph Smith where Dr. Willard Richards had left it when driven from Nauvoo on the 4th day of February 1846. . . .

Thomas Bullock acted with me as chief clerk, being a clerk in the History office previously to, and at the time of Prest. Smith’s death, and has continued in it ever since. His pen wrote the principal part of the rough manuscript from my dictation, and his acquaintance with all the papers was of great assistance to me—
Jonathan Grimshaw sorted and filed the papers, and carefully amalgamated the principal part of the discourses of President Smith and others from the various reports mentioned above, and put them into shape to be filled up by me. He also assisted in writing the manuscript of the History from my dictation, compiled indices, and performed other duties incident to the office—

Leo Hawkins assisted to file papers, copied correspondence, and wrote the final copy of the History in Books C2 and D2 after revision; besides attending to office business generally—

Robert L. Campbell copied the rough manuscript of the History into books D1 and E1 which were revised by the Presidency and Council. . . .

The plan of compiling the history of Joseph Smith from the Journals kept by his Clerks . . . was commenced by himself, extracting items of necessary information in regard to general and particular movements from the Times and Seasons, Millennial Star, Wasp, Neighbor and other publications, extracts from city councils, Municipal Courts, and Mayor’s dockets and Legion Records, which were all kept under his direction; also the movements of the church as found in Conference Minutes, High Council records, and the records of the several quorums, together with letters and copies preserved on file; also noted remarkable occurrences throughout the world, and compiled them under date of transaction, according to the above plan which he [Joseph Smith] while in prison just previous to his murder requested Elder Willard Richards to continue.

“The History has been compiled to the day of his [Joseph Smith’s] death and the principal part of it has been revised by the Council of the First Presidency almost without any alteration. A few vacancies remain to be filled up from the statements of persons who are now absent. (George A. Smith to Wilford Woodruff, 21 Apr. 1856, Historical Record Book, 218-219)


Even though Smith claims that Joseph’s History was “revised by the Council of the First Presidency almost without any alteration,” there were significant alterations made to some of Joseph’s diary entries. One of them had to do with polygamy.

Because Joseph had been so careful in Nauvoo not to admit to the practice of polygamy, there were no instances of him endorsing the doctrine, except for the 1843 “revelation” which was not made public until after his death, and was therefore touted by some as a concoction of Brigham Young.

Unfortunately for the Church in Utah, there were many statements by Joseph where he condemned the practice. One such instance was the ORIGINAL diary entry from Joseph Smith's Journal, for October 5, 1843:

Thursday, October 5[th] Morning rode out with Esqu[ire] Butterfield to farm &c. P.M. rode on prairie to shew some brethren some land. Eve[ning] at home. Walked up and down St[reet] with Scribe and gave instructions to try those who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives on this Law. Joseph forbids it and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife. [rest of page blank] {page 116} (Scott H. Faulring, An American Prophet's Record, p.417).


This poses all kinds of problems for those who wanted to affirm that Joseph never did such a thing. (Forbid the practice of polygamy in the fall of 1843) and affirmed that he did so in a PRIVATE diary entry. (I am writing an Essay to explain why he did this).

In the Draft History (1 March 1843 to 31 December 1843) under the date of October 5, 1843 it was deceitfully changed to read:

Thursday 5th. This morning I rode out with Esquire Butterfield to the farm &c. In the afternoon rode to the Prarie to show some brethren some land. Evening at home, and walked up and down the street with my scribe. Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives, on this

[the following written in smaller text:]

(or according to the law I hold the keys of this power in the last days, for there is never but one on Earth at a time on whom <on this law> the power and its keys are conferred – and I have constantly said

[end of smaller text and blank line]

Joseph forbids it, and the practice thereof. No man shall have but one wife

[the following written in smaller text:]

<at a time> unless the Lord directs otherwise.


On the left hand side of the page is written, to be revised (History draft; handwriting of Thomas Bullock, John L. Smith, Jonathan Grimshaw, Robert L. Campbell, Leo Hawkins, Richard Bentley, and Wilford Woodruff; CHL., 72).

Image

Richard S. Van Wagoner wrote:

When incorporating Joseph Smith's journal into the History of the Church, Apostle George A. Smith, a cousin, altered this passage to reflect later Mormon thinking:

"Gave instructions to try those persons who were preaching, teaching, or practicing the doctrine of plurality of wives; for, according to the law, I hold the keys of this power in the last days; for there is never but one on earth at a time on whom the power and its keys are conferred; and I have constantly said no man shall have but one wife at a time, unless the Lord directs otherwise" (HC 6:46).(Richard S. Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy, p.63, note 1).

Finished Manuscript History entry:

Image

This is absolutely INTENTIONAL deceit. By covering this stuff up for years, we know that modern Mormon "Authorities" are complicit in that deceit. And did they VOLUNTARILY disclose all this? No. They were FORCED to, by people like the Tanners, honest historians like Mike Quinn and others. But they still restrict lots of documents and engage in totally DECEPTIVE practices when it comes to History and Doctrine.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_grindael
_Emeritus
Posts: 6791
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:15 am

Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _grindael »

How are we culpable for this kind of deception, Chris? Published in the official History of the Church, touted by many other Mormon Authorities? Apologists, etc., even long after the original diary entry came to light?
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Stop Saying That We’ve Been Lied to by the Church - WWE

Post by _sock puppet »

CaliforniaKid wrote:To be honest, I was mostly just trolling both sides in this debate. I wanted to see if I'd get more comments if I wrote something a little more wrongheaded. (And the answer is yes, by the way. Suddenly I understand the secret to Dan Peterson's success.)

I do think people are basically products of biology and environment, and most of the Twelve have had perverse training not only as LDS missionaries but also as lawyers and businessmen. So there's a sense in which I don't really believe in "fault," not for anyone. But I also believe that no matter where immoral behaviors come from, they must be challenged and corrected. So I'm not really willing to let Church leaders off the hook, at the end of the day. I mostly wanted to tweak everyone's nose a bit and force us all to engage in some self-reflection about our own culpability in all this.

With posts like that, sounds like you might be adept at running for public office someday.
Post Reply