Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

[_AmyJo]

Karran isn't a fraud. The lawyer exposing him who Packham knows of has a string of judgments against her both in Salt Lake City, and in Pasadena where she moved from before she went to Utah.

She has civil judgments from both before and after she went to law school in Utah. Not such a great track record of honesty there. It's all on the public record, for anyone who wants to look it up for themselves. Including some of her student loans from law school. She is the one with the tarnished record

She is/was out to lynch him, and posted material that didn't provide any proof he had received full custody of his children.

She is probably one of the hacks LDS sets up to discredit anyone who tries to put its name in the spotlight on child molestation charges, or church history come to light.

It's characteristic of the Moron church to defame and malign its protagaonists, like Karran. She's a stoolie, in other words, for the morgue.

[_Res Ipsa]

Ah, okay. Got you.

I think he is releasing his daughter's witness testimony tomorrow. As I understand it, his name was discredited enough that no one would take him on. That fits with the Utah lawyer's private messaging to Packham. Avoid him, he is a fraud.

I don't think the daughter gave any "testimony." It is another tape recording. Keep the chronology in mind:

2002 -- the phone call. The call bothers Karren so much that he embarks on a personal odessy to understand the dysfunction in his and his wife's family. This leads to him compiling a 600 page cross referenced document and, ultimately, leads him to resign from the church. It does not, however, bother him enough to take his daughter to a therapist. The daughter is 6 at the time of the call.

6/9/06 -- The wife files for divorce. The divorce is angry and contentious.

7/11/07 -- Court hearing that involves pleading that Karren wrote but apparently filed under his attorney's name. I believe this is the first time in the file he raises the issue of his daughter being molested by grandpa. He has not made the pleading available, but the Commissioner chewed him out about it. According to the recorded conversation between the wife and the mother, he has been sending letters making these accusations to various people.

2008 -- While driving home with her father from a visit with her mother, the now 12-year old daughter volunteers that she knows why she was told not to sit on grandpa's lap six years before.

???? -- What does the father do? Does he take her straight to a therapist? Does he report this to the mental health professional who is doing an evaluation of the family in the divorce? Was a report prepared? What does it say?

???? -- the recoded interview that will be released tonight.

Dad claims this was a bona fide repressed and recovered memory.

[_Res Ipsa]

I think that's a bit unfair. Both Micklesen and the daughter agree that promiscuous activity took place.

Sex abuse is a hideous crime because it is difficilt to prove. Thus the court of public opinion.

This is the same style of argument that mental gymnast made a couple of weeks ago (educated believers and critics agree that there were plates....) It was rightfully ripped to shreds then, and should get the same treatment now.

You don't know what Mickelsen "agrees" to. Fourteen years ago, Mr. Mickelson had some kind of conversation with Mrs. Mickelson. Mrs. Mickelson then had a telephone conversation with Mrs. Karren. Mrs. Karren then had a conversation with Mr. Karren. Mr. Karren is reporting the conversation with the wife to us. None of us know who interjected the work "promiscuous" into the conversation. It could have been any of the four participants. We only have one person's story, and that person was not a witness to what Mr. Mickelson said to his wife. This is a perfect example of what Rosebud said upthread -- Mr. Karren's writings are full of highly motivated chains of reasoning, but very short on actual evidence.

The court of public opinion is a lousy judge of the truth.

[_Res Ipsa]

Karran isn't a fraud. The lawyer exposing him who Packham knows of has a string of judgments against her both in Salt Lake City, and in Pasadena where she moved from before she went to Utah.

She has civil judgments from both before and after she went to law school in Utah. Not such a great track record of honesty there. It's all on the public record, for anyone who wants to look it up for themselves. Including some of her student loans from law school. She is the one with the tarnished record

She is/was out to lynch him, and posted material that didn't provide any proof he had received full custody of his children.

She is probably one of the hacks LDS sets up to discredit anyone who tries to put its name in the spotlight on child molestation charges, or church history come to light.

It's characteristic of the Moron church to defame and malign its protagaonists, like Karran. She's a stoolie, in other words, for the morgue.

Yeah, and I'm Tobin.

[_Rosebud]

In an attempt to humiliate, discredit and gain power over AmyJo, Tobin publicly accused her of sleeping with Karren. This was abusive. AmyJo called him on his b.s. (well done AmyJo).

Karren is attempting to humiliate and gain power over his ex-wife. This is also abusive. Same technique.

I imagine there's a very good chance Karren's ex-wife is curled up in a ball somewhere sobbing because of the humiliation Karren is subjecting her to right now. I am guessing there's a good chance Karren knows and wants this. He is likely an expert in how to most effectively harm his ex.

I was especially disgusted when Karren wanted to make sure we all knew that his ex-wife hid the recorder "in her crotch." He successfully got all of his audience to think about her private area despite the fact that the location of the recorder was superfluous information. He stripped her naked and used the Internet to set her out in front of all of us -- naked -- while he claimed he was doing so for a good cause. This was abusive and cruel.

It was also manipulative of his audience. No, Karren is not a hero for abusing his ex-wife even if he says he is doing this to help victims. Talk about messed up.

Tobin's public abuse of AmyJo was cruel. It pales in comparison to the public abuse Karren is currently subjecting his ex-wife to.

[_Res Ipsa]

In an attempt to humiliate, discredit and gain power over AmyJo, Tobin publicly accused her of sleeping with Karren. This was abusive. AmyJo called him on his b.s. (well done AmyJo).

Karren is attempting to humiliate and gain power over his ex-wife. This is also abusive. Same technique.

I imagine there's a very good chance Karren's ex-wife is curled up in a ball somewhere sobbing because of the humiliation Karren is subjecting her to right now. I am guessing there's a good chance Karren knows and wants this. He is likely an expert in how to most effectively harm his ex.

I was especially disgusted when Karren wanted to make sure we all knew that his ex-wife hid the recorder "in her crotch." He successfully got all of his audience to think about her private area despite the fact that the location of the recorder was superfluous information. He stripped her naked and used the Internet to set her out in front of all of us -- naked -- while he claimed he was doing so for a good cause. This was abusive and cruel.

It was also manipulative of his audience. No, Karren is not a hero for abusing his ex-wife even if he says he is doing this to help victims. Talk about messed up.

Tobin's public abuse of AmyJo was cruel. It pales in comparison to the public abuse Karren is currently subjecting his ex-wife to.

My point was this: AmyJo makes the same kind of personal attack on people who disagree with her. She accused me of being Tobin. She also accused me of being an LDS hired informant. She did the same to the attorney who said something she didn't like -- dug up some "dirt" of questionable relevance and then accused the attorney -- based on no evidence whatsoever -- of being a paid LDS stooge. People who live in glass houses and all that...

[_I have a question]

From the latest release:

Had Jean not stepped up and admitted on tape that all of this actually did happen, it ALL would have remained hearsay. Fortunately for our peace of mind, Jean finally admitted on tape—one year later, that it all took place: nothing was fabricated.

http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/profi ... e=activity

Has that tape been released yet?
Is it a reference to the transcripted tape recording?
Where does Jean finally admit everything?

[Guest]

From the latest release:

Had **** (EDIT) not stepped up and admitted on tape that all of this actually did happen, it ALL would have remained hearsay. Fortunately for our peace of mind, **** (EDIT) finally admitted on tape—one year later, that it all took place: nothing was fabricated.

http://www.lifeaftermormonism.net/profi ... e=activity

Has that tape been released yet?
Is it a reference to the transcripted tape recording?
Where does **** (EDIT) finally admit everything?

Good question. Where?

This gets back to why I made the presumption (because of course I don't know, I'd have to ask Karren questions about how bullied he was as a teenager for social issues, etc.) of both high-functioning autism and Narc PD. It's a complete mis-read of the social situation. He doesn't understand that it's very normal and even understandable for anyone who is aggressively being asked questions about another person and who has requested the questioning end without success to say, "Why don't you go ask your grandfather?" And now that statement is his evidence that she "fortunately" admitted everything???

High-functioning autism would explain his seeming inability to understand the meaning of the social situation between his son and ex-wife to the extent that he's releasing evidence that doesn't prove what he wants it to prove and is feeling secure that his interpretation is accurate despite the fact he's probably been told it's inaccurate many times before. He seems like he's missing access to a lot of simple information that people without a diminished capacity to comprehend others' intentions, actions and emotions can glean using the parts of their brains that might not be functioning as well for Karren.

Another thing about adults with high-functioning autism is that they are sometimes so sure their misperceptions of others' intentions and actions in social situations are correct that they will pretty much argue their perspective to the death. If they have NPD too, they'll take extreme actions like this one. If I'm correct, there's probably nothing anyone can do to stop Karren from continuing. He will _know_ his interpretation is correct and that anyone who disagrees is wrong and has been deceived. This could be a long public ride.

Sometimes the only thing that can get someone with high-functioning autism and NPD to back down is authority: police, judges. The public will now be the final "authority"?

Just wow.

EDIT: ****** in quote

[_Rosebud]

In an attempt to humiliate, discredit and gain power over AmyJo, Tobin publicly accused her of sleeping with Karren. This was abusive. AmyJo called him on his b.s. (well done AmyJo).

Karren is attempting to humiliate and gain power over his ex-wife. This is also abusive. Same technique.

I imagine there's a very good chance Karren's ex-wife is curled up in a ball somewhere sobbing because of the humiliation Karren is subjecting her to right now. I am guessing there's a good chance Karren knows and wants this. He is likely an expert in how to most effectively harm his ex.

I was especially disgusted when Karren wanted to make sure we all knew that his ex-wife hid the recorder "in her crotch." He successfully got all of his audience to think about her private area despite the fact that the location of the recorder was superfluous information. He stripped her naked and used the Internet to set her out in front of all of us -- naked -- while he claimed he was doing so for a good cause. This was abusive and cruel.

It was also manipulative of his audience. No, Karren is not a hero for abusing his ex-wife even if he says he is doing this to help victims. Talk about messed up.

Tobin's public abuse of AmyJo was cruel. It pales in comparison to the public abuse Karren is currently subjecting his ex-wife to.

My point was this: AmyJo makes the same kind of personal attack on people who disagree with her. She accused me of being Tobin. She also accused me of being an LDS hired informant. She did the same to the attorney who said something she didn't like -- dug up some "dirt" of questionable relevance and then accused the attorney -- based on no evidence whatsoever -- of being a paid LDS stooge. People who live in glass houses and all that...

I am not going to respond or not respond to your point because I don't want to add agreement or disagreement to conflicts between posters here (and because I have not read all of these conflicts). My non-response is only an indication that I choose not to respond.

My post was made in an attempt to point out that the hurt AmyJo may have felt when Tobin spoke of her sexually to gain power over her might be similar, but smaller, than the hurt Karren is inflicting on his ex right now. My intention and hope was that AmyJo's own experience with similar public abuse might give her insight into Karren's ex-wife's perspective.

[_Chap]

This is a truly strange thread.

I suspect we may have gone past the stage where the amount of information or insight gained bears a reasonable proportion to the number of words posted, and the effort required to read and evaluate them.

But don't pay me no mind.