as far as it is translated 8 - Lucifer

[_ludwigm]

The KJV is unique among the different translations of the Bible; it uses in Isaiah 14:12 the name Lucifer, instead of "morning star" - as we can read in other languages. At least "we" who can read other language than English...

The "Lucifer" topic in and itself was handled here, I don't repeat it.

I am about translating Isaiah 14 AND The Second Book of Nephi Chapter 24

Israel will be gathered and will enjoy millennial rest—Lucifer was cast out of heaven for rebellion—Israel will triumph over Babylon (the world)—Compare Isaiah 14. About 559–545 B.C.

2 Nephi 24 is a word-by-word copy of KJV Isaiah 14.
The only problem is that non-English bibles - and some English ones, like LittleNipper's pet YLT don't know this lucifer guy. They say, for example

- YLT: "How hast thou fallen from the heavens, O shining one, son of the dawn! Thou hast been cut down to earth, O weakener of nations."

- German: Luther (1545) "Wie bist du vom Himmel gefallen, du schöner Morgenstern! Wie bist du zur Erde gefället, der du die Heiden schwächtest!"

- Hungarian: "Miként estél alá az égrõl fényes csillag, hajnal fia!? Levágattál a földre, a ki népeken tapostál!"

- Dutch (three of our twenty grandchildren are living in Netherlands...) "Hoe zijt gij uit den hemel gevallen, o morgenster, gij zoon des dageraads! hoe zijt gij ter aarde nedergehouwen, gij, die de heidenen krenktet!"

No Lucifer.
After this, how were the Book of Mormon words translated to different languages?

- Hungarian: "Hogy lebuktál a mennyből, Ó Lucifer, a hajnal fia! Levágattál a földre, aki meggyengítetted a nemzeteket[/u]!" by the way the translation is a joke. I can not explain the details. Sorry, not a joke. A shame.

- German: "Wie bist du vom Himmel gefallen, o Luzifer, Sohn des Morgens! Bist du niedergehauen zur Erde, der du die Nationen schwächtest!" Prophets are translators, You know...

- Dutch (Netherlands, fyi) "Hoe zijt gij uit de hemel gevallen, o Lucifer, zoon des dageraads! Hoe zijt gij ter aarde geveld, die de natiën hebt verzwakt!" My grandchildren have laughed: who did THIS translated? Well, they said they may have been pa and ma... the kids are fluent, the adults are far from it, like me



Well, all translations of Book of Mormon uses the word Lucifer, even the corresponding bibles don't. All of readers who really compare them with Isaiah 14, may wonder the difference. There are a few, as people rarely read the Old Testament. (Including my TBM wife.)

I've found 2+1 exceptions.
(As the Greek, Croatian and Hebrew BoMs are of scanned pages, You can see the pictures on Telestial...)

1. Greek.

Phosphorus (Greek Φωσφόρος Phōsphoros), a name meaning "Light-Bringer", is the Morning Star, the planet Venus in its morning appearance. Φαοσφόρος (Phaosphoros) and Φαεσφόρος (Phaesphoros) are forms of the same name in some Greek dialects.
Another Greek name for the Morning Star is Heosphoros (Greek Ἑωσφόρος Heōsphoros), which means "Dawn-Bringer".

The Greek Book of Mormon wrote in the chapter header:
'ο 'ισραήλ θά συναθροιστει καί θά άπολαύσει άνάπαυση χιλιετή. ο εωσφόρος άποβλήθηκε άπό τούς oύρανούς λόγω άνταρσίας. 'ο 'ισραήλ θά θριαμβεύσει έπικρατώιας τής βαβυλόνας (τού κόσμου). συγκρίνετε 'ησαία 14.
'o 'israíl thá synergastei kaí thá ápoláfsei ánápafsi chilietí. o eosfóros ápovlíthike ápó toús oýranoús lógo ántarsías. 'o 'israíl thá thriamvéfsei épikratóias tís vavylónas (toú kósmou). synkrínete 'isaía 14.
'the' Israel will cooperate and will enjoy millennial rest. eosfóros (=Venus…) was expelled from Heaven because of rebellion. 'the' Israel will triumph prevalent of vavylonas (of the world). compare 'Isaiah 14.
The verse 12 uses the same word, "εωσφόρος"

2. Croatian.
The Croatian Bible use the word Svjetlonošo, from svjetlo=light and nositi=bring, so it is the mirror translation of Latin.
2 Nephi 24 is the copy of Isaiah 14, apparently the Croatians didn't take the trouble to translate the English, they simply used the text of their Bible.

3. Hebrew. It were more interesting.
Well, there is no official Hebrew Book of Mormon. I found only an amateur version.
See the picture of the page...
It uses חילל = "helel"
I am eager to know, what will be the official version.
by the way the translator himself said in an interview:

The LDS Church is not supporting my translation. Mr. Rob Jex, of the LDS Scripture Committee in Salt Lake City, called me on March 26, 2012 to inform me that LDS Church objects to my translation. He requested that I “pull my website.”

That evening, I took a long walk and prayed about the situation. I received a burning in my heart from the Holy Ghost that I should carry on. Jews will be familiar with the Holy Ghost as the Still, Small Voice which inspired Elijah. (1 Kings 19:12)

I state this only for disclosure. I do not seek controversy. I respect Mr. Jex, and I respect the Church’s position.

I am not making the translation for the LDS Church. Rather I am doing it for the House of Israel.

Read the whole interview here: - http://www.jewishjournal.com/jews_and_m ... e_39120507 -


My summary: what is the proper text for Isaiah? Something translated direct from Hebrew - we have it - maybe using the Septuagint.
Or, translated through the Reformed Egyptian and English, which use the Latin word for planet Venus...

[_Maureen]

The word "lucifer" is latin and comes from Jerome who gave us the Latin Vulgate. He correctly translates the hebrew word helel as lucifer, meaning star of the morning, or light bringer, or morning star. The KJV translators just use the Latin Vulgate as their source and for whatever reason lucifer incorrectly becomes a proper name. Newer English translations have gotten it right, for example the NET Bible shows Isaiah 14:12 as:

14:12 Look how you have fallen from the sky,
O shining one, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
O conqueror of the nations!

M.

[_ludwigm]

The word "lucifer" is latin and comes from Jerome who gave us the Latin Vulgate. He correctly translates the hebrew word helel as lucifer, meaning star of the morning, or light bringer, or morning star.

Or planet Venus, as well.

The KJV translators just use the Latin Vulgate as their source and for whatever reason lucifer incorrectly becomes a proper name.
M.

As did the Nephites... You know, those Christians generations befor Christ, who spake Hebrew, wrote Egyptian (reformed one!) and used Latin and Frech words.

Newer English translations have gotten it right, for example the NET Bible shows Isaiah 14:12 as:

14:12 Look how you have fallen from the sky,
O shining one, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the ground,
O conqueror of the nations! Yes, there are some English versions better than KJV - better said, all other translations are better. The uneducated farmboy has known only KJV...

by the way
You (&NET version) wrote:
"O conqueror of the nations!" Conqueror... Not who weakened them!

The Hungarian version is

Levágattál a földre, a ki népeken tapostál!

=You was cut down to the ground, who has trampled on nations/people.

Or, in better Hungarian word order (up to today's speak): You - who has trampled on nations/people - was cut down to the ground .

The google translator is cheating; it uses a standard when and if it detects any biblical. And does it as jokes.
Levágattál a földre, a ki népeken tapostál! = Art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations out!(In Hungarian, sorry for)

1. "Levágattál a földre" is indicative mood, means "You was cut down to the ground", not interrogative (art thou etc...)
2. "to the ground, which didst" ... the ground which ??? this refers to the ground, not to a Babylonian king (subjective vs predicate thing)
3. "népeken tapostál" hehehe, stupid google...
- "népeken tapos" would be "people trample on" OK, but "people who are trampled on" would be far better but don't care google, see official scriptures
- "népeken tapostál" is simply 2nd person singular of "népeken tapos"; google uses "didst weaken the nations" instead of "you trample on people/nations" (or you didst --- as if anybody would use Elizabethan English ---)

[_jo1952]

Ludwigm,

I'm glad to see that you are studying Isaiah. I hope you continue to share your thoughts on Isaiah 14. Meanwhile, I'd like to share some of my own thoughts concerning Isaiah in general.

(This is Jacob speaking) 2Nephi 6:4 And now, behold, I would speak unto you concerning things which are, and which are to come; wherefore, I will read you the words of Isaiah. And they are the words which my brother has desired that I should speak unto you. And I speak unto you for your sakes, that ye may learn and glorify the name of your God.
5 And now, the words which I shall read are they which Isaiah spake concerning all the house of Israel; wherefore, they may be likened unto you, for ye are of the house of Israel. And there are many things which have been spoken by Isaiah which may be likened unto you, because ye are of the house of Israel.

Beginning with 2Nephi 12, we can compare Isaiah 2; then each subsequent chapter in 2Nephi can be compared with subsequent chapters of Isaiah through 2 Nephi 24--being compared to Isaiah 14. While other parts and chapters of Isaiah also appear in 2 Nephi, the first Chapter of Isaiah simply is missing. I think I know why; and will explain later in this post. Following is what Isaiah Chapter 1 said about what the Lord had to say about the religion of the house of Israel; it doesn't present a pretty picture. Now, take into consideration that in the above verses Jacob explains that the people to whom he reads the words of Isaiah can be likened unto the house of Israel because the people being read to are of the house of Israel. Since we are to understand that the Nephites had possession of ALL of the writings of Isaiah (as presented in the book of 1Nephi), it is pretty safe to assume that they also had Chapter 1 of Isaiah.

The people of the Book of Mormon miss the point that the Lord spoke through Isaiah in that chapter, as did those Israelites of the Old Testament (if they had understood, they would have done away with their religion). It says that their religion is pretty much an abomination to the Lord. The people cannot see this; instead, they find great joy in continuing to think that they are God's "chosen" (it is iniquity to think that some are better than others...God is not a respecter of persons, and all are alike unto God); and they follow the letter of the Law....the very religion of which the Lord is weary. The present day Church also cannot see that it is religion itself which wearies the Lord. The Church, like the Nephites, proudly follow the letter of the current religious Law which Joseph gave them, along with the religion which Christ gave the Nephites after they didn't do what He asked them to do. Christianity, in general, also proudly follows the religion created around the teachings of Christ...even though what Christians believe about Christ is NOT what He taught them.

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

I happen to believe that the first chapter of Isaiah WAS included in the 116 pages which never made it into the printing of the Book of Mormon. I think that, because the people surrounding Joseph desired religion instead of accepting and believing what Christ taught, those pages "went missing" on purpose before the Book of Mormon was even finished being translated. Scripture can be a stumbling block. When people are filled with iniquity, they can only see what they want to see; interpreting scripture according to how they believe God sees them. To make sure the people stumbled over the rest of the Book of Mormon, I think Joseph made sure that their eyes could not be opened by the first Chapter of Isaiah. When people desire to be chosen or appear to have "God" on their side, those idols in their hearts are given to them. What they receive blinds them to the fact that their idols (their religion) is the very iniquity which causes them to be estranged from the Lord. D&C 84 explains that the entire Church...every single member....is under condemnation; just another way of saying that every member of Zion is estranged from the Lord. The Prophet Ezekiel also explains that ALL of the house of Israel is in trouble.

Ezekiel 14:1 Then came certain of the elders of Israel unto me, and sat before me.
2 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
3 Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their heart, and put the stumblingblock of their iniquity before their face: should I be inquired of at all by them?
4 Therefore speak unto them, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Every man of the house of Israel that setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him that cometh according to the multitude of his idols;
5 That I may take the house of Israel in their own heart, because they are all estranged from me through their idols.

It's interesting to note that when Christ visited the Nephites, He gave the people a commandment to diligently search the words of Isaiah; something which the Church never did while I was a member for nearly 40 years. In fact, my experience was that most members didn't spend much time studying Isaiah as he was too difficult to understand.

3Nephi 23:1 And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.

[_Maureen]

The point I was trying to make is that when Jerome translated Hebrew into Latin, it was not his intention to create a new name for Satan, since Isaiah 14 is not about Satan; it is a taunt against the King of Babylon. It wasn't until later that others conflated the character Satan and word lucifer into the same thing. The word lucifer evolved into another name for Satan, when really it was just a latin word for light bringer.

M.

[_moksha]

Ludwigm, what of the possibility that the sealed portion of the plates will someday be revealed and we will be given the Grimoire of Nephi which will testify to Uranus in no uncertain terms?

[_ludwigm]

Ludwigm, what of the possibility that the sealed portion of the plates will someday be revealed and we will be given the Grimoire of Nephi which will testify to Uranus in no uncertain terms?

Your question is ambiguous (or I have language problems, as usual).

Ver 1: what of the possibility that the sealed portion of the plates will someday be revealed
Ver 2: what of the possibility that we will be given the Grimoire of Nephi
Ver 3: what of the possibility that it will testify to Uranus

Now, I get around to answer.

1. If the tendency is as is - that the High Fifteen's age is increasing -, the possibility is very low. For octogenarians it is hard to reveal anything. Especially the nine tenth of the iceberg.
- [#img] http://img1.indafoto.hu/10/1/57091_6715 ... 4b96_m.jpg[/img] - I hope You know how to show a pic...

2. Zero. Joseph Smith and his followers in his throne don't know the word grimoire. I am happy that You know it.

3. I don't answer; this is a personal attack. I repel any testifying to my anus.

by the way...
What about Lucifer in The Second Book of Nephi Chapter 24? Do You want to relieve The Queen of Outer Darkness?