Mickelson Case: GA coverup cont.,

[Guest]

RI. I am taking child sex abuse claims seriously. The core issue for me is ******'s (EDIT) statement which backs up Mickelsen's *possible* phonecall when she was 6. I understand the desire to destroy Ron's credibility, but for me, this isn't about him. It's about ****** (EDIT) and other possible victims.

I linked to this on my Facebook page when it first came out. The ensuing discussions and pm's from people who had experienced European leaders attempt to shut down child abuse cases, and to not report to the police was troubling.

Doc asked what the church could do. Actually, a lot. It's not the gold standard it purports to be on child abuse. Leaders are not trained, practice is messy. As a teacher I had a legal responsibility to the child, as my first concern, to report if I had any suspicion of child abuse or neglect, I also acted in loco parentis.

As I understand it, the church provides activities for children, whilst disavowing itself of any legal responsibility for a child's welfare. When a child, parent, friend, -- goes to a bishop with their concerns, privilege can be claimed rather than mandatory reporting.

In Karren' case, even if he is not a credible witness, the ecclesiastical leaders should be dispassionate (Donakey) not cow tow to a 70 or apostle. The child comes first.

What can the church do? Change it's policy on child abuse for a start. Mandatory reporting, better advise from the hotlines which are about protection for the church, not the children. One honourable thing GP Lee did, which lost him a supportive wife, was to actually admit to child abuse (touching the child's breast was about as far as he could go). He felt the weight of the law, served his time and eventually registered on a sex offenders list. As an apostate, no problem believing the two children in that case. We'll see.

All of this may be a fiasco, and Ron, I suppose could have fabricated the telephone call from Mickelsen to Ron's wife, could have persuaded Kylee that she was abused by grandpa. Maybe. I doubt it, but maybe.

I found an excellent article from a lawyer operating Stateside about what the LDS church could do before it's forced by litigation costs. I'll dig it out. It was the best I had seen from someone dealing with victims from various faith persuasions and from the Boy Scouts If I recall correctly.

I believe there is a child abuse problem in the Mormon church. I am concerned Karren will discredit reasonable abuse reports as he discredits himself. I am concerned former Mormons might defend Karren in his obvious reasoning errors and therefore discredit themselves and real abuse victims. I think it is especially important for former Mormons to fight their own biases and assume Mikelsen is innocent until proven guilty.


EDIT: ****** in quote

[Schreech]

Rosebud. Absolutely understand that where someone doesn't admit guilt, there has to be an assumption of innocence , unless proven guilty.

What standard of proof would you be looking for? Would you discount K's account simply because of the actions, credibility problems with her father?

[_Mary]

Again, this isn't about (for me) hating on the Mormon church. It has nothing to do with anyone's present faith position but with how victims or potential victims are treated.

[Guest]

Rosebud. Absolutely understand that where someone doesn't admit guilt, there has to be an assumption of innocence , unless proven guilty.

What standard of proof would you be looking for? Would you discount ******''s (EDIT) account simply because of the actions, credibility problems with her father?

I care about Karren's daughter as an individual. I believe she was hurt by someone, but that we don't know who. I believe her father is further harming her by involving her in his FUBAR before she is old enough to give her full consent. I believe she deserves ten years, at least, of time to privately heal in a safe place. The center of attention in a public accusation -- full of reasoning errors -- against a high-ranking Mormon official will likely be further traumatizing. Talk about pressure. Her father is acting abusively. I don't need anything from Karren's daughter. My feelings towards her are protective. I don't think it's her job to be some example to get the Mormon church. It is immoral to use her as a means to an end.

Mikelsen has not admitted guilt. Karren says he has and is building a convoluted case against him that takes advantage of Karren's own daughter. The reason I refuse to refer to Karren's daughter by her first name in my posts is out of personal respect for her privacy.

This is not Karren's daughter's problem. It needs to be the problem of older, wiser and more experienced people. This cause needs a better leader than Karren -- preferably a woman.

[_AmyJo]

Again, this isn't about (for me) hating on the Mormon church. It has nothing to do with anyone's present faith position but with how victims or potential victims are treated.

It became a church coverup because of Mickelson's high profile status inside the church, and what his cronies did alongside himself to cover for his transgressions. Instead of coming clean and owning up to his own family he divided his daughter from her husband, and threw both his granddaughter and now ex-SIL under the train in order to purge his guilty conscience of lap time with grandpa.

Sick. Sick. Sick. I'm sick of fakers pretending nothing happened when it did. The cronyism doesn't stop with the GA, as evidenced by others here who would absolve a GA regardless of the sworn testimony of family.

It all comes down to sides when you're LDS as evidenced by those who would say anything to cover for someone who molested children, and got away with it.

Why didn't' Karran file a restraining order immediately against his FIL who was a GA and wife's daddy's girl? He had the illusion his marriage was sacrosanct and he wouldn't do anything to impair his relationship with his wife who obviously did nothing to help her daughter but formed an alliance with her father instead of protecting her child. The stance was she was not to sit on grandpa's lap any more, end of discussion. It wasn't until she was twelve that she finally was able to discuss with her father what really happened and not just grandpa's account of what he says she did.

The divorce was a decision made by both her and her father, it's plain as day to see. He instigated it, paid for her crooked attorney, and Jean bailed.

So much for eternal marriage and the family is forever notion.

I know from personal experience how the LDS church turns a blind eye to parental abuse inside the church. It denigrates those who come forward and ignores pleas for help from its own LDS members where abuse is concerned.

It's primitive and savage at best. It looks the other way in molestation cases and blames the child as in this case. Mickelson calling his six-year old granddaughter promiscuous is about as surreal as it gets, but it does more because the damage is done and it doesn't care what the fallout is so long as it doesn't get busted. Hence its stoolies fall out of the woodwork defending pedophiles instead of asking what the hell is going on, and what is wrong with this picture?

Statistics don't lie. The church is responsible for some very twisted coverups all the way back to its inception, starting with Joseph and his pedophilia.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

How would've Jean extricated herself from a toxic marriage and a possibly abusive (sexual?) husband if she were completely dependent on her spouse?

I mean, after all, Karren smugly asserted to her that she'd lose her children. Talk about a threat. What kind of of nightmare was she living in for her to have absconded with her kids to her father's home?

AmyJo, you're making an awful lot of assumptions, taking on faith (no surprise given your posting history), that Karren is telling the truth. You have nothing but his word, a narrative totally framed by him. You ignore glaring inconsistencies in his story, his character, and his motivations.

That said, the Mormon church should be held accountable for its policies on adult men 'interviewing' children on their sexual morality:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Mormon+ ... 8&oe=utf-8

Doing a simple Google search one can see the process is happening and is ongoing. It doesn't take a genius to see that the Mormon church's transgressions are being punished, and institutional change is in progress. Literally all you have to do is type into Google's search engine keywords such as Mormon+Church+sued+child+abuse or some variation on that. To say the Mormon church isn't doing anything, or isn't being punished, or could do whatever better is to show one's ignorance on basic Internet sleuthing.

- Doc

[_Mary]

Rosebud, Ron's daughter is now married If I recall correctly. Look, if he is doing all this without the consent and approval of his children then I might agree with you. If, however, he has the full support of his kids, then that is a different matter. Sometimes, there is catharsis in *getting it all out there* for all the individuals involved, including Mickelsen, and if he is innocent then he should be suing Ron surely?

[_Mary]

I don't condemn anyone in all this, not even Micklesen. If he is guilty then he needs help to come to terms with what he has done and accept responsibility for his *problem* daughters and the damage done to his grandaughter. If he is innocent then he should be clearing his name.

I asked my husband how he would react if grandma phoned on behalf of grandpa asking that grandaughter not sit on his lap because she was being *promiscuous*. His response...he would be troubled and alarm bells would go off. Would he go to the police....he wouldn't have enough to go to the police with...unless the daughter details what grandpa did or didn't do, and he would find it difficult to ask a 6 year old leading questions.

He would make darn sure daughter never went near grandpa's lap again, but this wouldn't be something forgotten...

[_Rosebud]

I condemn anyone involved in the sexual abuse of a child and I condemn those who sexually shame and manipulate others for their own gain. This isn't a game of tiddlywinks.

[_Mary]

You think that anyone here thinks this is a game of tiddlywinks?? If Micklesen is guilty then the law should punish him as appropriate. He should recognise his crime, ask for forgiveness from his victims and follow the theological teachings of his own church on repentance.
Repentance means confession, recognition, restitution and since the crime is so horrendous, an appropriate custodial sentence. If he is innocent then he has been publicly wronged and it is Ron who should be asking his forgiveness and the forgiveness of his ex wife and children.