Mormon God [fallen, saved, finite, exalted man ]

[_seven7up]

And the only reason he isn't God now is because he lost. The winners get better PR.

He was wrong, because forced love is not true love. You and I both know that.

I very much doubt you can back up either of your accusations here.

I am taking Jesus Christ's word for it:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

-7up

[_Tobin]

And the only reason he isn't God now is because he lost. The winners get better PR.

He was wrong, because forced love is not true love. You and I both know that.

I don't think Lucifer was interested in forced love. The more likely answer was power.

I very much doubt you can back up either of your accusations here.

I am taking Jesus Christ's word for it:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

You still have failed to mention what he was lying about or who he murdered in the beginning. This magic saying doesn't answer either question.

[_seven7up]

I don't think Lucifer was interested in forced love. The more likely answer was power.

He wanted to gain power, sure, which was to be gained by means of trying to force people into love and obedience, but God is right, because using force does not allow for TRUE love or obedience.

Stephen wrote: I am taking Jesus Christ's word for it:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own, for he is a liar and the father of it.

You still have failed to mention what he was lying about or who he murdered in the beginning. This magic saying doesn't answer either question.

I just explained how Lucifer is a liar.

He is a murderer because he took 1/3 of the hosts of heaven into rebellion against God, which is equivalent to "spiritual death".

-7up

[_Tobin]

I don't think Lucifer was interested in forced love. The more likely answer was power.

He wanted to gain power, sure, which was to be gained by means of trying to force people into love and obedience, but God is right, because using force does not allow for TRUE love or obedience.

Not really. Power is maintained not by forcing obedience through love, but instead by fear.

You still have failed to mention what he was lying about or who he murdered in the beginning. This magic saying doesn't answer either question.

I just explained how Lucifer is a liar.

He is a murderer because he took 1/3 of the hosts of heaven into rebellion against God, which is equivalent to "spiritual death".

Actually, you made the claim he was a liar from the beginning. What exactly was he lying about? And if 1/3 of the host of heaven chose to leave, it is quite a ridiculous claim that Lucifer actually murdered them. After all, they did choose to do so, but seeing as they can't really die I doubt you could justify that remark. So who has Lucifer supposedly murdered, ever????

[_Mittens]

http://thetruthaboutmormonism-creeksalm ... ttles.html

[_Mittens]

The LDS have a long established method for determining their doctrine and the Journal of Discourses isn't it.

SEE Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted.

All of the LDS doctrine concerning the idea of God the Father once being a man who lived on an Earth originated from Joseph Smith, and any insight on detail was given by the King Follett discourse. And the King Follett discourse describes God the Father as having lived as Jesus Christ did - (Also described as Jesus as following the same path as God the Father.) So, any discussion on the matter should always be understood in that context, and originally from that source.

I think many people, including some LDS people, have missed this original context.

Certainly, there is a deeper and more detailed discussion concerning whether or not there is a difference between "gods by grace" and "Gods by nature", which is a discussion that occurred in early Christianity as well, when discussing "theosis".

The details are not clearly defined in LDS doctrine concerning how the organization of worlds, galaxies, universes holds together with exalted "gods" and those who, like Jesus, were naturally divine.

LDS, including leaders, can speculate on the matter, however, it is not official doctrine as you have correctly noted. Perhaps the interpretation of John's gospel that Joseph Smith provided can be considered as "official" as we can get, and church manuals have been based off of those concepts.

But everyone would be wise to look at the original King Follett discourse in its entirety, rather than taking bits and pieces of it and then formulating theories based on sentences out of context.

I posted here in this thread, for all to read, the verses from the New Testament that Joseph Smith was referring to , and his interpretation of it.

-7up

The Book of Mormon disagrees with Mormon position

Moroni 8:18
For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

2 Nephi 27:23
For behold, I am god; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.

2 Nephi 29:9
And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Mormon 9:9
For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

Mormon 9:19
And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchanging Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.”

Moroni 7:22
For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

[_jo1952]

Sorry if other Christians don't believe their own Bible.
See John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
To say you don't know everything about a subject is not the same as saying no one can ever comprehend it. The former is admission of reality(I have plenty I don't know) the latter is an statement of willful ignorant hubris(No one can ever know it).

Christians also don't believe what Christ was revealing in the verses that followed John 17:3:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Meanwhile I believe that Joseph was teaching us that there are many eternities within the overall eternity which encompasses eternal existence. As eternal beings surely we have experienced everything---and over and over again...perhaps this is what Joseph was pointing to when he spoke of three different estates....the first estate being where we have experienced everything that can be experienced as that eternal being. The second and third estates are created in order that "newness" can then be experienced. The creation of a second estate world, and subsequently the creation of a third estate world, represent additional eternities. When the newly created being decides it has experienced everything it wants to experience, it merely stops participating inside of the newly created world/eternity. We create new beings (a new self) in order that we can watch and see what our newly created being/self will choose; thus creating vehicles through which the eternal being can experience whatever the newly created has not yet experienced. We simultaneously exist in all three estates.

The idea which Orthodox Christians hold in that they "enter" into eternity doesn't make sense to me. How can you enter eternity, when eternity itself suggests that it has always existed. In other words, they believe that somehow you can enter eternity even though you have not always existed. I picture eternity as an eternal round. You are either in it, or not.

[_jo1952]

The Book of Mormon disagrees with Mormon position

Moroni 8:18
For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

2 Nephi 27:23
For behold, I am god; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.

2 Nephi 29:9
And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Mormon 9:9
For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

Mormon 9:19
And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchanging Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.”

Moroni 7:22
For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

Mittens,

The beliefs of Christians (including Orthodox Christians) often disagree with Christ's teachings as outlined in the Bible---especially with the most crucial things. The LDS aren't the only ones whose positions don't agree with their own canon.

[_Mittens]

The Book of Mormon disagrees with Mormon position

Moroni 8:18
For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

2 Nephi 27:23
For behold, I am god; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.

2 Nephi 29:9
And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Mormon 9:9
For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?

Mormon 9:19
And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchanging Being? And behold, I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles.”

Moroni 7:22
For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing.

Mittens,

The beliefs of Christians (including Orthodox Christians) often disagree with Christ's teachings as outlined in the Bible---especially with the most crucial things. The LDS aren't the only ones whose positions don't agree with their own canon.

I believe what's taught in the Bible completely

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

The Godhead consists of the three distinct personages and three gods.. The Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Father and Son have bodies of flesh and bones, while the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit. Robert Millet A Different Jesus page 198

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

Doctrine and Covenants section 132:

37 Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

[_jo1952]

I believe what's taught in the Bible completely

No, you don't. The biggest for instance is this:

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Instead, you believe that Christ's work was finished on the cross. You also believe that Christ died for our sins. He died BECAUSE of them; In other words, because of the wickedness of the people, they killed Him. Isaiah prophesied about this:

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Strong's dictionary explains that the use of the word "for" in the phrase "for our transgressions" is translated as such:

H4480
מִנֵּי מִנִּי מִן
min minnı̂y minnêy
min, min-nee', min-nay'
For H4482; properly a part of; hence (prepositionally), from or out of in many senses: - above, after, among, at, because of, by (reason of), from (among), in, X neither, X nor, (out) of, over, since, X then, through, X whether, with.

This translations assists us in being able to see what Christ taught when He said that He had finished the Father's work BEFORE Gethsemane and the cross. The teaching that Christ's work was finished on the cross is a false teaching taught by false prophets.