My Favorite (to date) take down of Creationism.

[_SteelHead]

Jo,
Science by definition has shifting as part of the methodology. It is not a weakness of the methodology. Religion is the side the speaks in un evidenced absolute truths.

[_Franktalk]

Jo,
Science by definition has shifting as part of the methodology. It is not a weakness of the methodology. Religion is the side the speaks in un evidenced absolute truths.

Did you ever see the movie Contact? The main character had an experience that was not shared by any one else. That is somewhat how spiritual revelation works. It is a personal experience. What you are saying is any personal experience not shared is not to be believed. Does that mean that love felt by someone should be denied because no one else feels your love? And what of the other emotions are they to be cast aside as well? Does science reject love, hate, and fear the same way spiritual experience is denied? It seems to me that science picks and chooses which personal experiences are acceptable and which ones are to be rejected. Since no personal experience or emotion can be shared just what is the rejection criteria for personal experience? Is there an approved list accepted by science? Who made that list? Surely you must know.

[_jo1952]

The telling difference is that science can reliably back up its claims with evidence. As long as they can do that (which they generally do very well), it would be foolish not to accept their findings. No one who has made any serious and honest attempt to study science and its history and the consequent technological progress and improvements resulting from it can honestly or reasonably deny the spectacular success of science in continually improving our understanding of how reality works over time. I see no comparable or analogous progress in real understanding of reality resulting from faith based religion and claimed divine revelation. When it comes to real understanding of reality and how the universe works, science is really the only game in town.

And none of this really conflicts with what Einstein had to say about appreciating the mystery and the spirit of discovery. My favorite quote from Einstein is "Reason without faith is lame, but faith without reason is blind." By faith, he did not mean faith in a divine, omnipotent being, but in our ability to discover, work out and appreciate the mysteries and wonders of the universe. But if I had to choose between those two extremes (reason without faith or faith without reason), I would rather be lame than blind.

I don't think in the quote that I pointed to that Einstein was speaking about the spirit of discovery. He pointed to something much greater than mortal man.

Christ spoke things to the religious; they were the blind and deaf He referred to in His teachings. The hidden message was His attempt to tell us that WE are the "Father". This message opens our minds to be able to understand what is really going here. Once we allow ourselves to accept that that message, then EVERYTHING changes in how we perceive the world around us. It causes us to see that, since EVERYONE is the "Father", then every single human being is equal to all others....at least outside of mortality (It is obvious that circumstances within mortality are not equally experienced by everyone). That message leads to answers which never change....they never need to change....because they lead to the Real Truth. That is something science is NOT able to find because she is relying on the shifting sands of physical, flesh truth. She is focused on the mortal, natural man, enemy of "god", "truth". This focus causes her to be led by the natural man's interpretation of what he thinks is going on here. It slows progress; it sets up a false truth right off the bat....which belief then causes science to build upon a reality that is false. Religion is a more powerful source of falsehood....it leads more people away from the Real Truth than any other belief system. Both religion and science, because they are focused on the flesh interpretation of what they think is happening, are unable to focus on how to relieve the suffering. In fact, they cause more. They cause derision, division, feelings of superiority over those who don't agree with them. They lead us in paths of untruth.

I would think that those in science would want to follow a path of real truth rather than choosing to cling to a science satisfied with needing to change her truth all of the time. Christ provided a way for us to learn of and follow a path of real truth which does not change. That path, by virtue of being the real truth about what is going on, would help us heal the problems we have created while we have floundered in our ignorance....the ignorance of not knowing the truth about what is going on.

Alas, the purpose of being here is to experience opposition in all things....including the experience of living in a world which doesn't have the real truth. We have been given the opportunity to choose whatever we want to believe. Most of us choose to believe in what the world believes; vs choosing to believe what Christ offered. He is not the mystical mythical being in whom Christians choose to believe. They believe according to religion; they can only see His teachings through the eyes and ears of religion. Science does the same thing. Science sees and hears through the world's version of what is going on. While science does make advancements in technology and in ways to help the sick; her focus is on the world's version of reality....and not on the Real Truth which Christ taught. As such, because she focuses on the flesh version of reality, she is also not able to accept what Christ taught. As such, she will continue to believe in truth that always needs to change....because her truth is not based upon the real reality. Christ taught His message knowing that we still had our free agency to see and hear His message; or not. The choices we make here are helping to keep our advanced self happy and able to experience the fulness of joy which is the ultimate reward we can give ourselves as eternal beings.

Neither religion nor science are required to accept the real truth. The consequences of not knowing who we really are can be seen in the mess this mortal world exists. Even though it is a mess, and different choices could ease the suffering of the masses, the purpose for mortality is being fulfilled. There IS a purpose as to why we are here.

[_huckelberry]

t. Most of us choose to believe in what the world believes; vs choosing to believe what Christ offered. He is not the mystical mythical being in whom Christians choose to believe. They believe according to religion; they can only see His teachings through the eyes and ears of religion.

Jo 1952, I am a believer in Jesus in a way which is related to the kind of thinking Christians have done in the past 2000 years. There is variety and openness in that area so I am under no obligation to accept every idea people have come up with.

I have zero clue to what you mean by "mystical mythical being" I do not know how that conglomeration of words relate to "religion believing"

It occurs to me that I am also puzzled to how religion can believe anything. As best as I understand what religion beliefs are the end result of people thinking about their experience. I believe that includes experience with God, experience with words and experience with other people.

Jesus spoke inviting people to think about what he said. I have done so and value his lead. I have no reason to think my resulting understandings are perfect. My imperfect understanding interrelates with my ongoing experience of life.

I am going to mention that your putdowns of other Christians seems to smack of bullying more than thinking. (otherwise you wouldnot insult my thinking with "mythical mystical being")

[_SteelHead]

Jo,
Science by definition has shifting as part of the methodology. It is not a weakness of the methodology. Religion is the side the speaks in un evidenced absolute truths.

Did you ever see the movie Contact? The main character had an experience that was not shared by any one else. That is somewhat how spiritual revelation works. It is a personal experience. What you are saying is any personal experience not shared is not to be believed. Does that mean that love felt by someone should be denied because no one else feels your love? And what of the other emotions are they to be cast aside as well? Does science reject love, hate, and fear the same way spiritual experience is denied? It seems to me that science picks and chooses which personal experiences are acceptable and which ones are to be rejected. Since no personal experience or emotion can be shared just what is the rejection criteria for personal experience? Is there an approved list accepted by science? Who made that list? Surely you must know.

I am not saying that. Personal experience is personal, has weight to those who experienced it. Uncorroborated personal experience is of little value in terms of determining if an event occurred. It is purely subjective and unverifiable. The person making the claim of some significant religious experience could as well be lying, or delusional. I am not basing my life view on some one else's unverifiable claim. If I make a claim of a personal experience that can in no way be confirmed or denied, why should others be obliged to believe it? More so, one that involves something fantastical or supernatural.

In contact there was evidence that something else had happened..... the length of the tape. Your theory about aliens..... No evidence.

[_Franktalk]

I am not saying that. Personal experience is personal, has weight to those who experienced it. Uncorroborated personal experience is of little value in terms of determining if an event occurred. It is purely subjective and unverifiable. The person making the claim of some significant religious experience could as well be lying, or delusional. I am not basing my life view on some one else's unverifiable claim. If I make a claim of a personal experience that can in no way be confirmed or denied, why should others be obliged to believe it? More so, one that involves something fantastical or supernatural.

In contact there was evidence that something else had happened..... the length of the tape. Your theory about aliens..... No evidence.

So using your logic and the criteria of science if someone tells you they love you then you should deny the love because there is no way of proving they are actually in love with you. And the opposite is true. If you tell someone that you love them then they should also reject what you say you feel because they can't share your personal experience.

[_SteelHead]

Nope, not at all. I would use observation of their actions to determine if their behavior is consistent with their claim.

[_jo1952]

Jo 1952, I am a believer in Jesus in a way which is related to the kind of thinking Christians have done in the past 2000 years. There is variety and openness in that area so I am under no obligation to accept every idea people have come up with.

I have zero clue to what you mean by "mystical mythical being" I do not know how that conglomeration of words relate to "religion believing"

It occurs to me that I am also puzzled to how religion can believe anything. As best as I understand what religion beliefs are the end result of people thinking about their experience. I believe that includes experience with God, experience with words and experience with other people.

Jesus spoke inviting people to think about what he said. I have done so and value his lead. I have no reason to think my resulting understandings are perfect. My imperfect understanding interrelates with my ongoing experience of life.

I am sorry you think my comments are a form of bullying. I am making observations based upon what Christ taught verses what Christianity teaches about Christ...and they just don't match up. I also keep saying that it doesn't matter what people believe...that we are here for the experience. No one has to agree with me. I don't believe anyone is damned..regardless of what they believe...that includes whether or not they believe what Christ taught.

I don't know what you believe about Christ; perhaps your belief about Christ is not what Christianity teaches either. I believe what Christ taught...and I try hard to follow His teachings about how to live in peace. I certainly no longer consider myself to be a Christian...because I no longer believe that Christianity teaches or believes what He taught...nor do most live the way of peace which He taught. As such, Christianity (including the LDS) are in a state of unbelief concerning Christ. As a result of their unbelief, Christians are not able to accept what Christ taught about the Father. He taught it without interfering with their desire for religion. Yet, it is because the religious can only see and hear His words through the eyes and ears of religion, they remain blind and deaf.

Here are some of the things which Christianity teaches about Christ which does not agree with His teachings: His work was finished on the cross....it is the key ingredient to the religion of Christianity. She teaches that, as a result of what Christ accomplished on the cross, He is able to save us from sin. Additionally, what is required in order for a Christian to be saved, they just need to believe IN Him and in the power of His death to save us; ask for forgiveness, get baptized with water...and in general (according to Orthodox Christianity)...believe in a specific set of "core" beliefs. Then, in order to remain saved, a person needs to keep the commandments. Should a person not be saved or remain saved during the duration of their mortal journey, then they are doomed for eternity.

Without going into a long and drawn out discussion in this post, suffice to say that Christ taught us His Work was finished BEFORE Gethsemane and the cross. He also spoke through Isaiah teaching what He thought about religion. It is because Christianity doesn't believe what Christ taught that she is wrapped up in religion...and from the perspective of that religion, she only has the eyes and ears to see from that perspective. That perspective is what the world teaches about Christ...it does NOT agree with what He taught.

Here is what He said about religion through Isaiah:

Isaiah 1:11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

Here is what Christ said about His Work during His first appearance inside of mortality:

John 17:1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Until we accept what Christ was trying to teach, our efforts of having a relationship with "God" (and this "God" will be in accordance with the teachings of what the world believes about "God"), will "feel" spiritual. That is because we think that "God" is mystical in nature...we only think that "He" is mystical because of what the world teaches about "Him". Once we are able to accept and believe what Christ was trying to teach, we will realize that there was never anything mystical going on in the first place. Until then, Christ will remain in a mystical sense inside of our minds. There is nothing right or wrong about that sense. After all, we are eternal beings...we are the most powerful beings that have ever existed. We exist because of our free will. Everything that ever gets created...be it in the second estate, or in the third estate (mortality), is created for the joy of the continuation of our eternal and never-ending existence. Man is that he might have joy. We are without beginning and without end; worlds without end. It has always been this way.

Moses, Christ, and Joseph gave the people religion after they rejected Him. They were given religion in accordance with their desires...their desires included the free will decision to have religion. In accordance with the rules concerning free will, these messengers/prophets were mandated to give the people what they wanted. People stumble on religion...In other words, religion causes them to not be able to understand or accept the Real Truth about what is going on here. There is no permanent damage in this; however, inside of mortality these choices do cause derision, division, hate, etc. These are the consequences...which can be seen by looking around us and seeing the mess the world is in. Christ's walk inside of mortality did not bring us peace. He DID bring a prescription for peace; but we have failed to live that "way". He also gave the hidden message of who we are....and left it up to our free will to make the choices that would allow us to understand and accept that message. He WILL bring peace when He returns at which point He will set-up a government which finally guarantees our ability to exercise complete free will (and the government shall be upon His shoulders). We currently are not able to enjoy that type of freedom. The third of the hosts of heaven who are participating inside of mortality BEFORE He has set up that peace through a righteous government, decided to see if they could get their avatars to remain true to who they really are despite entering at a time BEFORE His government was in place. For the most part, our advanced self has lost control of their avatar; the flesh is weak...and it is our flesh self/the natural man/satan/the enemy of "god" (of our advanced self)...who currently reigns on earth. The remaining two-thirds of the hosts of heaven (along with the third already participating), will enter mortality at that point. All of us who chose to participate in this particular solar system will then participate in the mortality phase of this particular eternal round...during Christ's reign.

I am going to mention that your putdowns of other Christians seems to smack of bullying more than thinking. (otherwise you wouldnot insult my thinking with "mythical mystical being")

Hopefully, I have cleared that up. My observations about Christianity and/or about religion in general....and/or other belief systems, are purposed to identify how belief systems immediately cause derision, divisions, etc., etc. These are created as a result of the weaknesses of the flesh....which weaknesses are purposely given to mortals. This not only sets up a world in which we can experience opposition to our true "God" self, it represents our mortal natural man/satan/enemy of "God" self known as our "avatar" (which is a close enough description which can be recognized by our our modern day world). It is this flesh self which has been given dominion over the mortal world. It is this flesh/mortal/natural man/satan/enemy of "God" self which causes us to treat each other unequally. It is our "God"/advanced self which knows and recognizes that we are all equal beings....it is this "God" who is not a respecter of persons. It is this "God" unto whom all are alike, who treats everyone equally. The veil separates our flesh (satan) self from our advanced (God) self; causing us to not be able to remember who we are or what is going on here inside of mortality.

[_jo1952]

Huckleberry,

I feel badly you think I am bullying Christians. Inasmuch as I believe we are ALL equal advanced humans participating inside of mortality, I no longer hold onto religious beliefs. I believe we are ALL "gods" (to use the religious term). I now believe that we can believe whatever we want to believe while we are here. What I now see about religion is that it is religion that even teaches there is a "God" in the first place. Yesterday's beliefs about "God" are identified by today's religion as myth. Today's religious beliefs about "God" are not yet thought to be myth. I think, though, that it won't be too many generations before all religion will be recognized as myth. Unfortunately, all religions...be they already considered myth or not, go on to teach us fear of "God". Fear of God is taught by the precepts of man. So, not only is it religion that teaches a belief in "God", it is also religion that teaches us to fear "God".

Isaiah 29:13 ¶Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

It is religion who bullies mankind by using a fear of "God" (which it happens is only a concept taught by religion) as a way to control our minds and thoughts. If religion can catch the ear of someone, they can gain control over the choices of those who also believe in religion. Those people become fearful of NOT believing in "God"; and fearful of not following the laws which are connected to whatever religion they have been taught to believe. This is most certainly an insidious form of bullying---it is a war that takes place inside of our minds; and too often has spilled over into the physical. That is because when people who believe in religion feel that their beliefs are being challenged, they strike out and persecute and even kill those who don't believe as they do. Religion is one of the most powerful tools ever used to try to remove free will.

I simply no longer believe in the "God" of religion; nor do I any longer fear that "God". I DO believe what Christ taught. I believe He is who He claimed to be (but no longer with the definitions understood by religion). He taught the religious...so He used their own terminology in order to teach His message...and also in order to not interfere with their free will to believe in religion. The reason He taught directly to the religious is because of religion's great hold on the minds of its believers. It was due to the power of religion's control over man's free will to be able to think unencumbered thoughts which caused Christ to enter mortality inside of the most controlling religion of that time period. Sadly, Christianity was the religion next created by mankind. They used the teachings of the man we recognize as "Christ", and developed yet another very controlling religion...another which has great power over our minds. It is just another religion which encumbers our ability to exercise the power of our own minds over our beliefs and actions. Christianity teaches us to fear NOT believing in the Christ they teach...even though the Christ they teach is not what Christ taught. They are just another religion which bullies the masses in order to gain more believers and more supporters....thus gaining control over the minds of its believers. Christ taught that the "kingdom of God" was within; In other words, He tried to get us to stop listening to what the world was teaching....because the world was removing our ability to use our own free will in our thoughts and in our actions. Ironically, man has been able to use Christ as another way to create more religion.

[_SteelHead]

Irony,
When the person who believes that Jesus is a hyper advanced space alien lectures an EV on what Jesus really meant.


For everything else, there is mastercard.