The CCC wrote:Faith really is just trust. It may be well justified, or it may not. Even a religious context doesn't change the basic point of who/what you trust(Have faith in).
Except that faith in a faith healer who explains everything with "God did it" is very different from trust in a trained and experienced physician who can show you x-rays and lab results and invites you to get a second opinion. The lack of clarity on this issue is why affinity fraud is so frequent among the LDS.
We are to seek out the best professional advice, AND seek out the support of God.
The CCC wrote:Faith really is just trust. It may be well justified, or it may not. Even a religious context doesn't change the basic point of who/what you trust(Have faith in).
Trust on who? Can't be God. You don't know him. You have only been told, by people, who or what God is supposed to be. Your trust is in what these people told you.
I've never been to China. How do I know China exists? I have faith that the people who have been there are telling me the truth.
Maksutov wrote: Except that faith in a faith healer who explains everything with "God did it" is very different from trust in a trained and experienced physician who can show you x-rays and lab results and invites you to get a second opinion. The lack of clarity on this issue is why affinity fraud is so frequent among the LDS.
We are to seek out the best professional advice, AND seek out the support of God.
Professionals can be investigated, are credentialed and certified, have accountability. God? Nope.
Franktalk wrote:Who do you trust the most? Do you trust those around you or do you trust your own mind? What if your mind led you to truth but provided no evidence for that truth. Do you then cast out your own mind and place your trust in others?
When I cast off the world and was led by my mind to truth I trusted that my mind was designed to do what it was doing. Most of the mind is filled with imagination, I have used it to write two scifi books (unpublished). So I am aware of how the mind can indeed create from almost nothing. But I also experienced a different path in the mind that can lead to truth. Do I cast off that experience so the world will love me, or do I cast off the world and accept truth? Knowing all along that if I embrace truth the world will hate me.
Joh_15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
What a strange thing for Christ to say. But now I know exactly why He said it. You can only have one master. You can master your own mind and not be tossed about by the world or you can surrender to the world and let the world determine your life. The world is filled with avatars that have surrendered their mind, the world loves them. But when the world sees an avatar not controlled by the world it will fight against that avatar.
If James Cameron only knew what an effect his movie has had on a couple of people.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 03, 2016 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
Themis wrote: Trust on who? Can't be God. You don't know him. You have only been told, by people, who or what God is supposed to be. Your trust is in what these people told you.
I've never been to China. How do I know China exists? I have faith that the people who have been there are telling me the truth.
Because we have photographs, movies, imagery from space, we can travel there ourselves. EVIDENCE. Totally unlike religion. Why is faith needed to determine the existence of China? You're making a silly argument here. There's no need to collapse into solipsism to try to protect religious sensibilities and traditions.
I've never been to China. How do I know China exists? I have faith that the people who have been there are telling me the truth.
This is not a fair comparison. It's more like a group of people that say the earth is hollow and they've been there but you can't go and you have to trust them. You are expected to believe them even when data says a hollow earth is not possible.
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
Professionals can be investigated, are credentialed and certified, have accountability. God? Nope.[/quote]
Never said God could be investigated, credentialed and certified. However the people who claim to speak(act) for him can be. Trust in God, but keep your hands on steering wheel.
The CCC wrote: Never said God could be investigated, credentialed and certified. However the people who claim to speak(act) for him can be. Trust in God, but keep your hands on steering wheel.
Trust in God or don't trust in God and see what actual difference it makes. Try to keep confirmation bias out of it.
How can the people who claim to speak for God be investigated, credentialed and certified? Are you talking about titles from institutions based on theology? Are there objective means for determining who speaks for God and who doesn't? Outside of subjective, circular reasoning like Moroni's promise. Joseph Smith claimed to have ways to discern good vs evil spirits but it required handshakes and the interpretation of handshakes came from Smith, too. And he even admitted to being influenced by an "evil spirit" that he didn't recognize at the time. So really, what are we talking about here?
I'm all for "trust but verify". The problem for religion is it often expects you to trust in a person, not God, and it gives you no means for verifying its claims other than emotional response. That is notoriously unreliable, as anyone who has survived a disastrous love affair can tell you. LDS people felt The Spirit even when Paul Dunn told completely made up stories. People are deeply moved by movies that are completely fake and enacted by actors. What does that tell us about ourselves?
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 03, 2016 4:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I've never been to China. How do I know China exists? I have faith that the people who have been there are telling me the truth.
This is not a fair comparison. It's more like a group of people that say the earth is hollow and they've been there but you can't go and you have to trust them. You are expected to believe them even when data says a hollow earth is not possible.
Is the earth hollow? There is plenty of evidence against it. But even if it was, it wouldn't have any relevance to what I believe about God. Why do I have to trust them? I'm fine with people believing anything they want, but their beliefs can't dictate what I believe.
The CCC wrote: Never said God could be investigated, credentialed and certified. However the people who claim to speak(act) for him can be. Trust in God, but keep your hands on steering wheel.
Trust in God or don't trust in God and see what actual difference it makes. Try to keep confirmation bias out of it.
How can the people who claim to speak for God be investigated, credentialed and certified? Are you talking about titles from institutions based on theology? Are there objective means for determining who speaks for God and who doesn't? Outside of subjective, circular reasoning like Moroni's promise. Joseph Smith claimed to have ways to discern good vs evil spirits but it required handshakes and the interpretation of handshakes came from Smith, too. And he even admitted to being influenced by an "evil spirit" that he didn't recognize at the time. So really, what are we talking about here?
I'm all for "trust but verify". The problem for religion is it often expects you to trust in a person, not God, and it gives you no means for verifying its claims other than emotional response. That is notoriously unreliable, as anyone who has survived a disastrous love affair can tell you.
I know of no way to empirically prove God. "To say nothing of God is not to say God is nothing".
I've only had one love affair in my life so far. The one with my wife of almost 44 years. I don't expect that will change. On The Other Hand being an old retired Psychiatric Social Worker I know that isn't always the case for everyone.
