Hales and Joseph Smith's Polyandry

[Guest]

Just to clarify, I am no longer a believing Mormon, but I must admit I am agnostic and I still have some hope the church is true. However, that tiny hope is shrinking every f*** day, and I am mad at the church. but it is not easy for me, I was born in this f*** church

Ok. Look, I'm not here to argue with Brian Hales. If you want to believe him, have at it. I know as much as he does, if not more about this subject. I've done the research. I agree with Mike Quinn, who I quoted. As for Winchester, Hales quotes him when it suits him. When it does not, he's "unreliable". He does this constantly and even Mike Quinn admonished him for this tactic. And the Amanda Cobb reference is from a letter she wrote to Brigham Young in 1862. That is the source. I don't want to influence you one way or another about your belief in Mormonism, I can only argue the evidence as I see it. I think your false memory argument is simply a red herring. But, by all means, believe what you will.

[_DoubtingThomas]

Ok. Look, I'm not here to argue with Brian Hales. If you want to believe him, have at it.

No! I am skeptical of brian's horse s***! but I am skeptical of Quinn too. I take no position.

I agree with Mike Quinn, who I quoted. As for Winchester, Hales quotes him when it suits him. When it does not, he's "unreliable". He does this constantly and even Mike Quinn admonished him for it. And the Amanda Cobb reference is from a letter she wrote to Brigham Young. That is the source.

Please answer my questions.

So can we rule out false memory? Joseph Smith married Sylvia two years before her daughter was born, so isn't it possible that Sylvia thought she had a private moment with Joseph? She obviously had private moments with Windsor Lyon, but is it possible she was "confusing or mixing fragments of memory events"?

I am puzzled that there is no conclusive evidence that Joseph Smith had at least one child with one of his polyandrous wives. Please tell me why. Did he use the pull out method?

If there is a lot of overwhelming evidence, why did Dan Vogel say Josephine account is the best evidence for sexual polyandry?

[_grindael]

So can we rule out false memory? Joseph Smith married Sylvia two years before her daughter was born, so isn't it possible that Sylvia thought she had a private moment with Joseph? She obviously had private moments with Windsor Lyon, but is it possible she was "confusing or mixing fragments of memory events"?

I am puzzled that there is no conclusive evidence that Joseph Smith had at least one child with one of his polyandrous wives. Please tell me why. Did he use the pull out method?

If there is a lot of overwhelming evidence, why did Dan Vogel say Josephine account is the best evidence for sexual polyandry?

False memory is a red herring.

I've already dealt with the question about children above. You must draw your own conclusions.

Ask Dan Vogel.

[_DoubtingThomas]

False memory is a red herring.

I've already dealt with the question about children above. You must draw your own conclusions.

Ask Dan Vogel.

False memory is not a red herring.

My only conclusion on this subject is that I don't have a conclusion.

[_grindael]

False memory is not a red herring.

In relation to this argument. It is. Please explain why Sylvia Lyon would be prone to this or have false memories. Saying that she believed in the supernatural is just silly.

[_Dan Vogel]

On Oct 21st there is going to be a great debate: bart herman vs robert price.
I would love to see another great debate, Vogel vs Hales. Would be the Mormon debate of the century.

Imagine the success and the number of devout LDS watching it?

Can an official debate ever happen?

Maybe someday. Not just yet. I haven't even laid out my case yet. I'm still investigating. Johnny knows more than I do. Perhaps you should ask him to debate Hales. Stay tune for my next video.

[_Dan Vogel]

Dear Dan Vogel,

As a former apologist I do have some doubts. I did listen to your excellent presentation (mp3), but I am still not convinced that Joseph Smith had sex with his polyandrous wives. If Joseph Smith had sex with his polyandrous wives, shouldn't we expect some children?

Joseph Smith did believe his own s***, so did he disobey the instructions in D&C 132:61? Why would he do that?

Did Josephine know before 1882 that her mother married Joseph Smith? Is it possible that Sylvia's belief that Joseph Smith impregnated her was the result of false memory?

How can we know what was in Sylvia's mind? She believed in the supernatural, spirits, miracles. How can we be sure Sylvia believed Josephine was the biological daughter of Joseph Smith? Just because Sylvia waited a lifetime to tell Josephine, doesn't rule out other possibilities. Or am I missing something?

Sincerely,

DoubtingThomas

If you believe Joseph Smith married and had sex with single women, where are those children?

False memory is a real thing, but you have to build a case for it. You can't just pull it out to escape difficult situations. For example, it works with the Spalding witnesses because we know their memories failed them for other reasons and we draw on false memory theory to explain how it happened, not to prove that it happened. Scholars like Stephen Harper who try to use it to explain different accounts of the First Vision misuse it.

D&C 132 was given in July 1843 after he had married his polyandrous wives.

When you ask this last question, it seems you are putting us on like a troll would. Because you can't read Sylvia's mind, you must stick with what is written and not imagine other things--just like what you are doing now reading this.

[_Dan Vogel]

3. I still don't see how we can rule out that Sylvia meant "spiritual" or "adopted" daughter. Perhaps it was a secret because it was too sacred to her?

Sylvia stated on her death bed (to Josephine) that she wanted to tell her a secret that no one else knew. We know this was not that Josephine was Joseph's spiritual daughter because there is record of Sylvia already being open about that.

Here is what Josephine wrote about this conversation with her mother:
“Just prior to my mothers death in 1882 she called me to her bedside and told me that her days were numbered and before she passed away from mortality she desired to tell me something which she had kept as an entire secret from me and from all others but which she now desired to communicate to me. She then told me that I was the daughter of the Prophet Joseph Smith”.

But, Sylvia's other daughter (Phebe) wrote that her mother "had spoken often of her 'special sealing' to the Prophet Joseph Smith".

So the "secret" was not that Josephine was Joseph's spiritual daughter, it was that Sylvia believed Josephine was Joseph's physical daughter ("an entire secret" that had been kept from Josephine "and from all others").

Here's a link to Phebe's statement and writings:
http://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-c ... hapter.pdf

This is from the Carr family history and is fiction. See my video.

[_grindael]

Johnny knows more than I do.

Maybe, but I have a feeling not for long. You still taught me a thing or two in your video.

[_DoubtingThomas]

Thanks Dan for replying, I do take you seriously and respect you. I watched most of your videos, but unfortunately I can't share them on Facebook, I get in trouble if I do.

When you ask this last question, it seems you are putting us on like a troll would. Because you can't read Sylvia's mind, you must stick with what is written and not imagine other things--just like what you are doing now reading this.

You are right, it is meaningless to talk about philosophical questions that we can never answer. I am not a troll, it is just a bad habit that I have to challenge others and start debates, I used to do that a lot when I was an apologist.

If you believe Joseph Smith married and had sex with single women, where are those children? .

Yes, always have, even FairMormon and Greg Smith admit that. What on Earth did Joseph Smith do to avoid getting his wives pregnant? Perhaps Jesus gave him some celestial condoms? I am puzzled!

False memory is a real thing, but you have to build a case for it. You can't just pull it out to escape difficult situations. For example, it works with the Spalding witnesses because we know their memories failed them for other reasons and we draw on false memory theory to explain how it happened, not to prove that it happened. Scholars like Stephen Harper who try to use it to explain different accounts of the First Vision misuse it.

I told grindael, "So can we rule out false memory? Joseph Smith married Sylvia two years before her daughter was born, so isn't it possible that Sylvia thought she had a private moment with Joseph? She obviously had private moments with Windsor Lyon, but is it possible she was "confusing or mixing fragments of memory events"?"

So is it a reasonable possibility?