Problematic John Dehlin, a short list

[SaturdaysVoyeur]

"You can leave John Dehlin but you just can't leave him alone."

If Rosebud ever needed a title for her autobiography, that would be it.

OMG, that was the best comeback I think I have read, possibly ever.

[jpatterson]

Seeing your posts here it seems you are the one who cannot leave Dehlin alone. I get your comment as a comparison to leaving Mormonism but not leaving it alone. It may apply if you had had a life time of abuse and trauma from Dehlin. Otherwise not so much. You seem particular obsessed with the man.

I'm sorry, did I miss the part where you're the arbiter for at what point people get to care and have to stop caring about things?

You're using the same stupid logic my family uses when I try to bring up issues with the church. "Why are you so obsessed?" "Why don't you just move on?"

It's a trope intentionally designed to squelch criticism, it's lazy and it has nothing to do with length or breadth of abuse/trauma.

[dastardly stem]

No from what I see jumping back in here, as a very, very long time member of the prior board, is a whole Crap load of Dehlin threads with hundreds of pages of posts. Ya all seem rather obsessed with the dude. That was my point. Don't like it. I am at the point in my life and journey out of Mormonism and post Mormonism where I don't really give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about what I say.

Alright...well, carry on. Not sure what you think obsessed means. As I see it, no one's obsessed with him. Some are concerned with how he's handled some things, as a leader of a community of sorts.

[Jason Bourne]

No from what I see jumping back in here, as a very, very long time member of the prior board, is a whole Crap load of Dehlin threads with hundreds of pages of posts. Ya all seem rather obsessed with the dude. That was my point. Don't like it. I am at the point in my life and journey out of Mormonism and post Mormonism where I don't really give a rat's ass what anyone thinks about what I say.

Alright...well, carry on. Not sure what you think obsessed means. As I see it, no one's obsessed with him. Some are concerned with how he's handled some things, as a leader of a community of sorts.

An over 200 page thread about John and Rosebud, another thread by Meadowchick here that is over 40 pages. Look I get that John is subject to scrutiny and such as a public figure. But some of this seems a bit excessive.

[Jersey Girl]

But I like the rat's ass.

[dastardly stem]

Alright...well, carry on. Not sure what you think obsessed means. As I see it, no one's obsessed with him. Some are concerned with how he's handled some things, as a leader of a community of sorts.

An over 200 page thread about John and Rosebud, another thread by Meadowchick here that is over 40 pages. Look I get that John is subject to scrutiny and such as a public figure. But some of this seems a bit excessive.

Oh it is. I know you've been around for years. You must have seen the excessive threads about Dan Peterson and company? It's similar, as I see it. as obsessed fools, we all need to get our points in, I guess.

[SaturdaysVoyeur]

An over 200 page thread about John and Rosebud, another thread by Meadowchick here that is over 40 pages. Look I get that John is subject to scrutiny and such as a public figure. But some of this seems a bit excessive.

Y'know, I think I like you. Please stick around.

It is all pretty messed-up. Gossip: The Sixth Saving Ordinance. You need it to get to heaven---but it can only be done on earth!

Just give us time and we'll get bored enough to start gossiping about dead people. Proxy gossip!

But if you scroll through both these threads, we have had some pretty good conversations about all kinds of things. Consent and sexual violence. Ownership of one's own story. The restrictions placed on women's lives and activities. Who is a leader and how much we should expect of them. Setting boundaries and which boundaries should be obvious to others and which ones they need to be informed of before they can be said to be violating them. How much we identify as "ex-Mormon." Social media etiquette. Marital fidelity. Privacy.

For me, I've learned a big lesson about not forgetting people's humanity. We're not writing fan fiction. These are actual people we're talking about and they can be affected by our words. Getting a good quip in isn't worth hurting somebody.

[Kishkumen]

Yes, Jason Bourne. It’s a fascinating development. Having run out of compelling punching bags after the fall of Mopologetics, the need has arisen to identify and pillory a new monster in John Dehlin. From what I can tell, he needs to be stopped before he becomes a predator, in the minds of those who are up in arms about his atrocities.

[Lem]

That's amazing. I always admire the people who pulled themselves out of the cult pre-Internet era. It goes a long ways to show what kind of internal fortitude you had. I had serious issues with the "church" even before I left for my mission in '90, but as a young man I couldn't really understand what I was thinking and feeling context to the issues that were bothering me - I was also unusually susceptible to peer pressure so I just rolled over. During my mission I read SO MUCH and realized that things were not what they seemed, but I, as you say, powered through it and hit all the check marks because the brainwashing and social conventions were so strong. It wasn't long after I married in the temple (ugh, the temple) that I went inactive because I couldn't resolve what I knew and social pressures I felt. I was just going to stick it out, even though it made me miserable. Something about the "church" was damned me up, but I lacked the cognition to make that last leap of "the church isn't true, it's a lie".

Then in 2001, after years of being a terrible 'apologist' for the "church" someone who was also a faithful apologist (there was an old forum called ldstalk we frequented) left the faith and suggested we check out https://www.exmormon.org/. I couldn't believe it. This faithful guy, a true stalwart of the faith, was out. It took me weeks of opening and closing that site before I read this: https://www.exmormon.org/phorum/list.php?3,page=1 <- granted those stories are recent, but back then they had all the exit stories that were relevant to my era. One night while on leave from the Army and visiting my in-laws in Tennessee, I opened those stories and read throughout the night. I couldn't believe it. All these people were me. All their stories were mine. And that night my shelf collapsed and that was that for me.

I had already lost my mother due to my inactivity, and after that night I lost my wife, my kids, my worldview, everything. Thank god someone set up another forum called 'exmo-social' where I had the support to transition. It was messy, and I made a lot of mistakes - many of which were repeated here, but little by little I think I balanced out, as well as I could (I recognize I'm a deeply flawed human being, but at least the flaws are my own and not so much the conditioning of my Mormon world).

So. Lemmie. I admire you and others who found their footing without that support. I really don't know how you did it, but you DID IT. When you're on your deathbed I hope, as you're looking back on your life, you take pride in that accomplishment. It was and is a monument to your character.

- Doc

Thanks Doc, I appreciate your comments very much. And hearing your story is fascinating. I sometimes think a slight silver lining is I was able to make my messy mistakes without being surrounded by a full Mormon contingent watching every move up close. There was plenty of long distance distain, but the challenges you faced up close sound almost unbearable to me. I'm glad you were able to 'balance out' as you call it. in my opinion, that takes a monumental effort.

[Dwight]

When JD solicited bad things (exmo) men do did he ask that they name names? Did he ask for behaviors or did he ask for who are the bad exmo dudes? I know it’s maybe not much, but it feels like a distinction I might find worth understanding as to why JD felt attacked and lashed out and reacted poorly. No one likes to be called out in the moment. I find people change behavior cause they want to and cause they understand the other side of why it might be wrong, but if you put the spotlight on them then it’s easy for them to dig in the heels and defend themselves. At some point you have to just call it out, but I wonder how it would be different if this got brought up, women agreed without putting JD’s name on it. I can certainly understand that this woman could be triggered and maybe she called JD out due to some emotional component. I recall once at work a toxic person asking what he thought was a perfectly valid question to figure out what the problem was m. It really triggered me cause he was the problem. He was and is a toxic person, but very little good came from that.

I find social media fascinating. Especially how different generations approach it. The seemingly permanent that can just as easily be gone tomorrow. The things that stick around forever. How everyone can be a voyeur and how other things can pass unseen by you. I totally get the interpretation of all the likes and think it is reasonable take away. I also think it is reasonable that some people just have zero clue how they can come across. My dad joined Facebook and well it’s fairly cringe inducing at times.

I think that there has been a good reminder to think of people’s humanity. I think JD is entitled to that too. Church leaders proclaim to lead by revelation and they have zero problem throwing previous leaders under the bus on some things so yes I do wonder why they can’t apologize for the temple/priesthood ban. JD has set himself on a hill under a microscope and so he has to balance that and take the good with the bad. I don’t really see a lot of JD defenders as much as people who think he hasn’t committed any capital offenses.