Rosebud wrote:zerinus.... How can a story that may or may not be true (as you put it) demonstrate that people who aren't like you will be hurt and you won't? Why would a good god hurt them for not believing? Can you thing of any reasons why humans in the history of the world would have started writing stories that discriminate against other humans based on belief? If humans write stories are they mythology? If they're mythology, will a good god really jump out of the clouds and follow the stories' morals in order to make the stories correct and protect the beliefs of the humans who wrote them? Would a good god observe the mythology and wonder how to help his children treat each other better seeing as how the mythology is discriminatory? How would a good god have felt about the exploitation of poor people necessary to build monuments in order to support stories people wrote? Would you want to worship any God who is not a good god?
This is the question is it not? Why? What reward is due those with the trait of gullibility? Zerinus tackles this enigma.
zerinus wrote:God has appointed a day of judgement in which all mankind will be resurrected, and then will be judged according to their works. If you believe that, then you will want to be on the right side of God, otherwise you are in for a big shock when it happens.
Here we find the answer. Those who are gullible are also looking at the world through a distorted lense where those whose gullibility aligns with their own are the only truly righteous people on earth while those who remain apart from their fantasy world view are doing so because of some inherent wickedness. If they ever arrive at a level of enlightenment sufficient to walk away from their faith they will make the surprising discovery that their religion never had a monopoly on "being good" and that people who lack any faith at all are often times better people with greater moral behavior than their former religious fanatic associates. How much more worthy of reward someone who does good who believes that death is the end of existence than someone who practices a principle of virtue because they think there will be a day of judgment? And how great is a god who cannot see through such brown nosing?
Kolob’s set time is “one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest” (Abraham 3:4). I take this as a round number. - Gee
If someone is asked to justify their claim to know something that is of major importance for humanity, and which does not merely pertain to an unobservable internal state (such as that they feel tired, etc.), and all they do is stamp their feet and shout "I just know, that's all!", then in general Zerinus would join the rest of us in raising an eyebrow, saying uh-huh, and ignoring the person's claims.
But for some reason, the claim "I know the Book of Mormon is true' is apparently not subject to such a test.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
I think I have finally figured out the best definition of faith.
Faith is the ability to ignore the fact that others who believe differently than you do, have exactly the same justification for holding on to their beliefs that you do.
Nowhere is this better illustrated than this statement by Zernius.
"I know that I know"
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Fence Sitter wrote:I think I have finally figured out the best definition of faith.
Faith is the ability to ignore the fact that others who believe differently than you do, have exactly the same justification for holding on to their beliefs that you do.
Nowhere is this better illustrated than this statement by Zernius.
"I know that I know"
Seems like everyone has their own definition of faith here.
Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith
Philo Sofee wrote:Yet they maintained those rituals more or less just like Christians and Mormons do today merely believing in belief, as if that made anything real. And they lived their lives with this kind of thinking and spent thousands of hours millions and millions of people's lives building their magnificent monuments and temples and none of them hardly ever exist today. They are all just more or less ruins. We may just basically see littered stones upon the landscapes.
Behold, our own future. Eloquently put, Philo.
Chap wrote:So we don't laugh at them or despise them; we can however regret that they spent so much effort and striving on things that they hoped would do them so much good and give them everlasting life and happiness ... and ended up just plain dead, like everybody else will in the end.
What should they have done instead?
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."
Chap wrote:So we don't laugh at them or despise them; we can however regret that they spent so much effort and striving on things that they hoped would do them so much good and give them everlasting life and happiness ... and ended up just plain dead, like everybody else will in the end.
What should they have done instead?
Stuff that might have done more than building elaborate tombs did to contribute to the happiness and fulfilment of human beings during their brief flicker of consciousness on this earth, a flicker preceded and followed by uncounted aeons of non-existence.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
zerinus wrote:I think I know what is going on in my own head better than you do.
You certainly do think that; I'll take your word for it.
There are, however, circumstances under which I might have a better understanding of your thoughts than you do yourself: one example may be if I have planted a post-hypnotic suggestion in you that you will think of Donald Trump dancing in a tutu whenever you hear a car horn sound.
You, if questioned as to what you are thinking of and why will almost certainly find that your mind has fabulated a reasonable explanation of why that horrid picture should have come into your head just after I have sounded my horn in your driveway. I, on the other hand, know better .. .and that is just one example.
Zadok: I did not have a faith crisis. I discovered that the Church was having a truth crisis. Maksutov: That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
zerinus wrote:Wrong! I think I know what is going on in my own head better than you do.
You're right, Z-boy. You are the one who knows what's going on in your head. And that's the point. It's just in your head. It doesn't relate to anything outside of it. You can give it whatever name you want, depending on whether you're a spiritualist, a channeler or a theist or a secularist. But it's your own internal neural activity, nothing divine, transcendent or supernatural.