Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

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_Rosebud
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Re: Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

Post by _Rosebud »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Rosebud wrote:Kish,

I'm not reading all of the thread or most of the posts. I don't read all of this board regularly.

I do this out of protection of my own health because I don't have the benefit of what I say only having to do with me personally or not causing major whiplash across the community. This is all very stressful and has been since I met JD. I very much enjoyed and protected my private life before I met him and while I worked with him.

Anyway, while skimming I saw something that implied you have disclosed something personal on this board that I have not responded to appropriately. I don't know what that is, but if this is true, please accept my apologies. Earlier you said something about me caring more about female than male victims and as that makes no sense to me because it is patently false, I just stated that I don't know what you were talking about and assumed you were just trying to Zing me message-board style. (That's a common first response: "You're just anti-male Rosebud," etc.

I still don't know what you were referring to and am still choosing to not read thread unless I hear from someone that JD or the Open Stories Foundation is actually speaking. Please know, though, that I care about all victims equally and have taken actions to protect male victims from those who specifically target them in the past. I am sorry for whatever offense I may have unknowingly caused. It is unfortunate to me that you will likely only ever know the Rosebud who posts here as this board is a very small and poorly representational fraction of me.

But that is all a message board really can be, no?

Anyway, apologies for what I may have insensitively missed in my attempt to keep my own stress down.


I really cannot endure this one second longer. You have not protected your own health and your claim of ignorance is simply a passive aggressive self serving dismissal to avoid taking and responsibility for your own comments here in relation to others.

There's nothing else to call it and your lengthy post doesn't change that obvious fact.


It is at times like this when I generally recommend people pick up the telephone and try listening to each other instead of making assumptions. Too much is lost without a better mode of communication. Human communication is difficult when face-to-face. This hardly suffices. I am always open to a quick phone call with those who want the same.

Be well Kish. I hope you will open yourself to the possibility that the person you believe me to be may be someone else, not me.

Please remember that I use this board to create a dated record and, in this case, to challenge the Open Stories Foundation board, rather than to develop friendships, but I am most definitely also open to friendships... just not message-board only ones as this place isn't the real world.
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Pro tip: Quickest way to draw immediate response from a self absorbed narcissist. Talk about them. See how nicely that works?

Rosebud wrote:It is at times like this when I generally recommend people pick up the telephone and try listening to each other instead of making assumptions.


This from the poster who completely ignored and dismissed the comments of Kishkumen and instead chose to criticize what she failed to engage.

Too much is lost without a better mode of communication. Human communication is difficult when face-to-face. This hardly suffices. I am always open to a quick phone call with those who want the same.


Hell would freeze over first.

Be well Kish. I hope you will open yourself to the possibility that the person you believe me to be may be someone else, not me.


That's right. It's all about you.

Please remember that I use this board to create a dated record and, in this case, to challenge the Open Stories Foundation board, rather than to develop friendships, but I am most definitely also open to friendships... just not message-board only ones as this place isn't the real world.


You used this board to solicit interest in your personal drama. That's what we expect. That's what you deliver. Every. single. time.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_RockSlider
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Re: Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

Post by _RockSlider »

Calm, as to your question about the board, Dehlin posted this:

Lee Stowell
Roger McOmber
Craig Woodfield
Steve Holbrook
JD

Seems the current board has been revealed .. oh and Rosebud's now a hit over at MDDB
_Symmachus
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Re: Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

Post by _Symmachus »

Kishkumen wrote:And, I guess that I have finally been around long enough to grow somewhat jaded about the "victim of Mormonism" narrative. Notoriety is a tricky thing. A little too tricky for me, so I hang out in the shadows. On the one hand, people look to imitate others in order to understand how they should behave in any situation. That is why the Church stigmatizes apostates. If you can see the apostate, you can imitate the apostate. That is also one reason why we transitioners spend some time studying the exit narratives of others as we are considering an exit. How do you exit? Read the literature.

But, once you have read the literature so many times, and heard so many stories, further repetition begins to taste bad in your mouth. "Ah, yes, I've heard that one many times." It is hard to retain the same kind of unfailing sympathy when you have both heard it a thousand times and also started to see a pattern of people cultivating their celebrity apostate status. It may be a difference of personality, but I can say that my personality does not resonate well with the phenomenon of the celebrity apostate. It is probably better for me not to comment when I see it, but I am feeling uninterested in the latest editions of podcasts of exit stories. No doubt I am not the target audience.


This encapsulates well my own view. I think one of the things that John Dehlin has promoted most (besides himself, I can almost hear Rosebud interject) is the idea of a "faith crisis." Obviously, many people experience an intellectual crisis of sorts when they find out X, Y, or Z about Mormon history and its implications for the present-day Church, but more people don't have crises. I would wager in fact that crises are quite rare and confined to the most devout members who 1) served a mission or married a returned missionary, 2) married in the temple, 3) attended both Church and the temple regularly, 4) held callings, 5) watched conference religiously, 6) followed in general the explicit rules and implicit norms of the Church, 7) studied the Church's teachings and read scriptures with some frequency, and 8) paid tithing. A lot of these have corollaries, too; for example, paying tithing implies the ability to pay tithing, which means a certain income threshold. A lot of these people seem to have been life-long Mormons whose family connections to Mormonism extend across generations. Judging from the podcasts I've heard over the years, most of these people seem also to be comfortably middle class and college-educated. They are invariably white-collar professionals or married to white-collar professionals. In other words, Dehlin focuses on people who are most like himself. It fits paradigm Mormons.

Now, that doesn't fit most Mormons at all. I doubt it even fits most "active" Mormons (which the Church defines rather loosely, if I remember, as something like "attends church twice a month" or "attends sacrament meeting twice a month" (I could be wrong on that definition...it's been a long time). Most Mormons aren't paradigm Mormons.

I have yet to hear the faith crisis podcast of the military serviceman/woman or truck driver with only a high school education or some college who drank coffee and alcohol every now and then, wasn't too strict about Sunday activities, derived some income from government welfare, was sealed but not married in the temple, rarely went to the temple after that, held really low-level callings, never really read the Book of Mormon, maybe caught a little conference on TV or on the radio, etc. etc. etc. etc.

I hear the Dehlin "faith crisis" stories and I hear people whose experience in life is so different from my own. I've had some really lucky breaks that have taken me to places I never could have imagined as a kid, and it's only because I got into academia that I was secondarily connected to the types of Mormons who have "faith crises" at BYU, but most of my family and Mormon acquaintances outside of BYU fit the second description of a Mormon, not the first. And their origins are in Utah (most of them are still there). Even outside of Utah, most Mormons I went to school with fit the second description, not the first. And I have only known one person who would actually describe their exit from Mormonism as crisis-inducing. Most just drift away. My parents are active believers and they have never heard of John Dehlin. None of my siblings is a believer or has been. None went on missions. None married Mormons. None have been to Church in years. All drink coffee and alcohol. None of them have ever heard of John Dehlin either and couldn't give one good god damn about Mormon transitions. My younger brother doesn't even know or care who Thomas Monson is.

I would bet that we are more typical of the ex-Mormon experience than anyone on John Dehlin's podcast. Yet, the narrative pushed by Dehlin in his less-than-scientific surveys has made the "faith crisis" the dominant one.

The problem with this is

1) it puts all the emphasis on belief and on the hierarchy, which I think most Mormons who leave don't care that much about. Most of them were Mormons because they grew up that way and it provided a good community, something the Church institution has systematically destroyed since the 1970s. John Dehlin's community of post/transitioning Mormons is never going to be able to serve the needs of most Mormons who leave. I think most would rather have people they can talk to about their families than bitch about how offensive some apostle is; they would rather have dinners and activities and camp-outs than group therapy to recover from the debilitating delusion that Joseph Smith knew how to read Egyptian papyri.

2) it turns the "faith crisis" narrative into a series of shorthands, even a replicated meme that is true for people not because of any identification between their common experiences that each articulate independently but largely because it is a ready-made product into which they can pour whatever their experience might be.

"Confused about the Book of Abraham? Well, then you must have a faith crisis! Let me tell you now what its stages are, fill you in on how other stories you learned at Church are BS, and help you transition to your new existence on a higher plane, where you will develop the following opinions and attitudes."

Back to you regularly scheduled Rosebud now...
"As to any slivers of light or any particles of darkness of the past, we forget about them."

—B. Redd McConkie
_Rosebud
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Re: Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

Post by _Rosebud »

But thank you, Dr. Shades, for allowing me to speak and to make this record. I can not fully explain how much it means.
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
_Meadowchik
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Re: Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

Post by _Meadowchik »

RockSlider wrote:calm has caught the scent of blood ... the key here seems to be about the 'board'


It's interesting how Calm is violating the MD&D board rules.

Shame on you, Calm.

It is bothersome to me because a thread I started a month or so ago was closed because I used anecdotal examples of common issues in the church. But she's using social media posts to challenge John Dehlin.

And then Juliann gets on Calm's thread ( Hi Juliann ) ties it to the church, then calls out people comparing the Open Stories Foundation to the church and starts "reporting the derails." I am banned from that thread so I cannot see if Juliann reported her own derails, but I'm not counting on it.

Go ahead, Calm and Juliann, expose an organisation and deligitimize it based on the poor standards of its founder. Please, please, please do this.

Then keep your own counsel.
_Lemmie
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Re: Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

Post by _Lemmie »

I am banned from that thread so I cannot see if Juliann reported her own derails....

Ouch, they still do that? I wonder why, when readers can just log out and read everything?
_Jersey Girl
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Re: Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Lemmie wrote:
I am banned from that thread so I cannot see if Juliann reported her own derails....

Ouch, they still do that? I wonder why, when readers can just log out and read everything?


:lol:
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
Chinese Proverb
_Rosebud
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Re: Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

Post by _Rosebud »

A podcast response instead of a concise statement? Well, I suppose that's what I should have expected: something that requires time and investment in him to listen to. I haven't been able to get myself to listen to any Mormon podcast for years. The idea of listening to that is very grating. I hope someone will summarize.
Chronological List of Relevant Documents, Media Reports and Occurrences with Links regarding the lawsuit alleging President Nelson's daughter and son-in-law are sexual predators.

By our own Mary (with maybe some input from me when I can help). Thank you Mary!

Thread about the lawsuit

Thread about Mary's chronological document
_Kishkumen
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Re: Falling out between Dehlin and Kate Kelly?

Post by _Kishkumen »

Symmachus:

I wonder to what extent the Mormon Stories phenomenon is a variation on other "recovery" groups and programs. Define the disease, construct a narrative, offer a remedy, celebrate the cure. Your comments about the demographics of the faith crisis phenomenon are interesting. I also wonder whether navigating a faith crisis sometimes amounts to resolving tensions of class and status. Is there the same status cost to Mormonism across the board? By cost, I don't mean an inevitable loss of status, but rather the effort to hold together somewhat conflicting identities.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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