Columbus and the Book of Mormon

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_Kishkumen
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Columbus and the Book of Mormon

Post by _Kishkumen »

1 Nephi 13:12 wrote:And I looked and beheld a man among the gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many water; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.


One of the clearest pieces of evidence that the Book of Mormon is a 19th century document is its anachronistic focus on the figure of Columbus.

The American Revolution created the Columbus most of us over the age of 30 learned in grade school. Prior to the late 18th century, he was a historical footnote with no connection to the 13 colonies. An Italian, he sailed under a Spanish flag and landed in no part of the modern-day United States. Yet when the need to develop a national history with no discernible connection to Britain arose during the Revolution, early Americans seized upon him. He was a blank slate on whom post-Revolution Americans could project the virtues they wanted to see in their new nation. Then, as now, the process of writing Columbus was one of defining what it means to be American.

In 1775 Phillis Wheatley, a 14-year-old free African-American girl, wrote a poem to George Washington that so moved the general that he distributed it widely. In it “Columbia” was used as an allegorical representation of the American nation, no doubt a riff on the female figure of Britannia. Though written examples of “Columbia” as old as 1761 exist, young Wheatley’s correspondence with the most popular man in the colonies made it, in today’s parlance, go viral.

Soon Columbia and Columbus were appearing in songs, poems, and essays in newspapers around the colonies. Historian Claudia Bushman cataloged nearly 100 of the surviving odes, most of which are awful. Columbus went from a minor figure in the history of European exploration to an American hero almost overnight.


See https://www.thenation.com/article/the-invention-of-christopher-columbus-american-hero/

Even then, people knew that Europeans, including Vikings and Portuguese fishing fleets, had visited or sighted North America before Columbus. And other explorers of Columbus’s era have better claims to “discovery” of the land that we now call the United States. But the politics of the Revolution disqualified the other contenders. Henry Hudson was British. Giovanni Caboto (anglicized as “John Cabot”) sailed for Britain. Juan Ponce de Leon was already in use as a hero in Spain. Giovanni da Verrazzano met an end unbefitting any proper national hero, having been eaten by Carib Indians in 1526.

Columbus had flaws as well. Until his death, he publicly insisted that he had in fact landed in East Asia as he originally intended. He was neither an especially talented mariner nor a success at founding a colony in the New World. Other than to allow him to begin bouncing around the Caribbean doing capricious and cruel things to its inhabitants, his famous voyage accomplished little.

Yet almost nothing was known about Columbus in the American colonies at the dawn of the Revolution, and this worked in his favor. The few written records of his voyages, including a biography by his son Ferdinand and a 16th-century history by Bartolome de Las Casas, were unavailable in the New World and were not translated into English until much later. The only detailed history of Columbus and his voyages widely available in colonial libraries was written by a Scotsman, James Robertson, in 1777. The author took a racist, ethnocentric tone, depicting Columbus as an explorer of noble intent bringing civilization to the savages. Importantly, Robertson also historicized Columbus as a man stifled by the rigid ways of the Old World and yearning to set his own course. The metaphor was not subtle, and revolutionary America embraced it.


Only an American writing after the creation of Columbus as America's discoverer in the late 18th century could have written this supposed prophecy. The Book of Mormon is a 19th century document. So many evidences point to this conclusion.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_candygal
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Re: Columbus and the Book of Mormon

Post by _candygal »

Hey guys...as I remember, it was Magellan who got here first anyway...I just wish the bank and liquor store was open... :wink:
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Columbus and the Book of Mormon

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

If it makes you feel any better, Salt Lake City renamed or added or amended today's holiday to the much more inclusive "Indigenous Peoples Day".

http://upr.org/post/salt-lake-city-coun ... eoples-day

Moroni Benally is a co-founder and member of the executive board of the Utah League of Native American Voters said:

“I just went to lunch with my niece, and a woman that we don’t know, I don’t know her, she said, ‘Happy Indigenous Peoples Day!’ And it felt great,” he said. “It feels good to have this day, because not only does it acknowledge who we are - but politically, socially - it gives us a platform to actually talk about Native issues. We’re thrilled and excited. It’s good to know that we do have a lot of good people working for us and on our behalf.”

Since I'm not Genoese, Colombus sailed under a Spanish banner, and Italy wasn't even Italy when this all took place I don't know why anyone would be terribly upset over this change. I kind of like it, despite the fart smelling and backslapping taking place locally.

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_JLHPROF
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Re: Columbus and the Book of Mormon

Post by _JLHPROF »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:If it makes you feel any better, Salt Lake City renamed or added or amended today's holiday to the much more inclusive "Indigenous Peoples Day".

http://upr.org/post/salt-lake-city-coun ... eoples-day

Moroni Benally is a co-founder and member of the executive board of the Utah League of Native American Voters said:

“I just went to lunch with my niece, and a woman that we don’t know, I don’t know her, she said, ‘Happy Indigenous Peoples Day!’ And it felt great,” he said. “It feels good to have this day, because not only does it acknowledge who we are - but politically, socially - it gives us a platform to actually talk about Native issues. We’re thrilled and excited. It’s good to know that we do have a lot of good people working for us and on our behalf.”

Since I'm not Genoese, Colombus sailed under a Spanish banner, and Italy wasn't even Italy when this all took place I don't know why anyone would be terribly upset over this change. I kind of like it, despite the fart smelling and backslapping taking place locally.

PC nonsense. I couldn't care less about the change. Neither Columbus Day nor Indigenous Peoples Day is a big deal. Right up there with Flag Day and Arbor Day for most people. But I am not fond of the mentality that brought it about.

As for the Book of Mormon mention of Columbus? I fail to see how it can be mutually exclusive with the historical Columbus. Even wicked men are some times prompted by God for his purposes. That is if it even refers to Columbus specifically and not one of the other explorers mentioned in the opening post. Scripture doesn't specify. We've always assumed vs 12 is Columbus and vs 13 is the pilgrims, but there are many historically that fit the bill.

10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.
11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.
12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.
14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.
Thy mind, O man! if thou wilt lead a soul unto salvation, must stretch as high as the utmost heavens, and search into and contemplate the darkest abyss, and the broad expanse of eternity—thou must commune with God. - Joseph Smith
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Columbus and the Book of Mormon

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Wasn't Columbus jailed by Queen Isabella for, you know, raping and murdering 'Indians'?

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Kishkumen
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Re: Columbus and the Book of Mormon

Post by _Kishkumen »

JLHPROF wrote:PC nonsense.


Evidently, a number of indigenous peoples don't agree with you.

I couldn't care less about the change. Neither Columbus Day nor Indigenous Peoples Day is a big deal. Right up there with Flag Day and Arbor Day for most people.
But I am not fond of the mentality that brought it about.


Surprise, surprise. White? Did you complain about MLK Day too?

As for the Book of Mormon mention of Columbus? I fail to see how it can be mutually exclusive with the historical Columbus. Even wicked men are some times prompted by God for his purposes. That is if it even refers to Columbus specifically and not one of the other explorers mentioned in the opening post. Scripture doesn't specify.
We've always assumed vs 12 is Columbus and vs 13 is the pilgrims, but there are many historically that fit the bill.

10 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld many waters; and they divided the Gentiles from the seed of my brethren.
11 And it came to pass that the angel said unto me: Behold the wrath of God is upon the seed of thy brethren.
12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.
14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.


So, you are claiming that the landing of the Vikings can credibly be associated with "the wrath of God" being "upon the seed of they brethren." In other words, it could have been anybody.

Who would you say are the "other Gentiles" who "went forth out of captivity"?

You're full of crap here. Relying on the fact that Smith didn't write Columbus and Pilgrims in order to avoid the inevitable conclusion--when you put all of the best evidence together--that the Book of Mormon was written by an Anglo-American author in the 19th century AD.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Water Dog
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Re: Columbus and the Book of Mormon

Post by _Water Dog »

Last edited by Guest on Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
_cinepro
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Re: Columbus and the Book of Mormon

Post by _cinepro »

Water Dog wrote:Interesting. Are there any writings from Smith or others confirming beyond any doubt that this scripture refers to Columbus?


https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/christophe ... n-prophecy
_cinepro
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Re: Columbus and the Book of Mormon

Post by _cinepro »

Kishkumen wrote:Only an American writing after the creation of Columbus as America's discoverer in the late 18th century could have written this supposed prophecy. The Book of Mormon is a 19th century document. So many evidences point to this conclusion.


Don't forget about Washington Irving's contribution:

The seeds of the Columbus myth seem to grow from Washington Irving’s biography of Columbus, A History of the Life and Voyages of Christopher Columbus (1828) (online here). Alexander Everett, Minister Plenipotentiary to Spain, had invited Irving to Madrid in the hopes that Irving would translate a recently published collection of documents on Columbus. When Irving got there and had a chance to read the collection, he decided

that a history, faithfully digested from these various materials, was a desideratum in literature, and would be a more acceptable work to my country, than the translation [he] had contemplated.

So he set out to write a history of Columbus. Irving enjoyed unfettered access to libraries, which he mined for his biography. He culled from manuscripts and published books a wealth of information. Despite the material at his disposal, the sources were at times silent or missing or not all that interesting. So Irving embellished. He wrote what should have happened, what surely did happen even if the evidence had since disappeared. He did what historians had been doing since Herodotus: he made it up. He seamlessly wove fact and fiction together into a “clear and continued narrative.”
_Water Dog
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Re: Columbus and the Book of Mormon

Post by _Water Dog »

Last edited by Guest on Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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