On audits, elections and public trust

[Mayan Elephant]

......Where we likely disagree is that to me, real evidence means nothing to him or his broader base......

Confirmed. On this we disagree. It is speculation only whether it means nothing/everything to Trump. It is speculation and generalization to say that it means nothing/everything to his broader base. It is equally speculative to say that the lack of evidence means nothing/everything to the base that did not support Trump. We just can't make those sorts of generalizations accurately or fairly. This point of disagreement is important to me. I think it is too late to put these kind of accusations away or reconcile them. The damage is done, and it is brutal.

Let me put it this way.....

Dr. Cam, Evictus and Gummer say horrible sh*t about me on this board and their basis is repeatedly that I am stupid, and voting for Trump is the ultimate proof of my stupidity. I am paraphrasing, but you get the point. My conclusion is that they really are just making stuff up for their own personal reasons and their lies and conclusions have nothing to do with me, really. How could they?

When you say that real evidence means nothing to his broader base, or to Trump, and I know a few people that disagree with that claim but consider themselves part of the base or support for Trump, well..... credibility shot. (not personal, just in the claim.)

This is why it was so damn important to get to the facts and set all this propaganda aside. By lumping it into a conspiracy of "means nothing", well, we get the outcome we got. Division, fault lines, ideology, Blue Anon, CNN BS and all the parallels on the other side that pair.

......Trump's suspicion of malicious machine parts that miscounted the votes......

And for Trump's bad lawyers: Trump is the undisputed king of litigation. If the main with 10,000 lawsuits in his rearview mirror, if he couldn't find a good lawyer to represent him, then he's too incompetent to be president, for that reason alone.

The kraken, dominion BS. HUGE HUGE HUGE mistake. Unforgivable and huge. Enormous. Almost as bad as putting those douchebag/pussy justices on the court. I would NEVER vote for Trump again - because of this. And, make no mistake here, Trump lost a lot of support by not chopping that Kraken sht down. I have no regrets for my vote (I own multiple small businesses and I buy fuel), but no..... that kraken sht is as bad as the standing then laches sht.

[Chap]

1: Statistical anomalies in the number of ballots received by mail, the time and means that ballots were received, and the qualitative and quantitative verification of signatures was worth scrutinizing. It served everyone well to establish credibility on all those issues. Again, more so for the credibility of the process than the credibility of the outcome.

2: Changes to the election process made by individuals other than the legislature happened in many states. The effect of those changes deserved scrutiny for several reasons, including constitutionality. There are also quantitative and qualitative concerns because of those changes. Again, more important to establish credibility of the process than credibility of the outcome.

3: The timing of the counting deserved scrutiny. Again, more important to establish credibility of the process than credibility of the outcome.

Were any of those alleged issues brought before a court?

If so, what was the result?

If not, why not?

In this connection, one would need to evaluate what happened, or did not happen, in the light the fact that Trump had huge interests in winning any such case, and he had the money to retain the best possible lawyers to argue his case.

If, given that, he neither litigated a given issue, or litigated and lost, any uncommitted bystander would be entitled to draw conclusions.

One of them might be that Trump was less interested in actually winning cases than in playing out the theatre of claiming that there was good reason to conclude the election was won by fraud, so as to energise his voter base with a huge sense of grievance and the conviction that Trump was actually a winner, and not the loser that (intolerably for his self esteem) he really was.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump ... 6af6e27cbe

Wisconsin election officials identified just 27 potential cases of voter fraud out of 3.3 million ballots cast in the November presidential election and forwarded them to local district attorneys for possible prosecution ...

The identified potential cases of fraud to date are in line with suspected voter misconduct in past elections in the battleground state. They are also far below unsubstantiated accusations made by former President Donald Trump and his supporters of widespread fraud and abuse in the election won by more than 20,600 votes by President Joe Biden in the state. Trump attempted to toss out more than 221,000 legally cast ballots in Wisconsin, losing in multiple state and federal courts.

Gee. Did an audit happen? HRM. Was Trump’s and the GOP’s allegations true? HRM. Was there anything out of the ordinary this election other than people voting more by mail because, oh I dunno, a damned pandemic was happening? HRM.

The utter lack of self-awareness by someone who’s been insulting anyone who, even mildly like Chap or Moksha, challenges his fantastically retarded hot takes is astonishing. Note, when he’s asked to back up his assertions he just craps out more assertions as his “proof.” Who does that remind you of?

- Doc

[Mayan Elephant]

The linked article was from last week. Read it. It was not a complete audit. Read it, the legislature is STILL trying to proceed with an investigation.

Read your own link.

Retarded? Really, Cam?

That article shows the depth of the distrust and how even getting data is split along party lines. Reminds me of the Mortgage and CBO debacle.

[Chap]

That article shows the depth of the distrust

Oh, there is huge distrust - amongst a minority of voters.

The question is whether they have any rational basis for assuming that the outcome of the election was significantly affected by fraud, or whether they just feel that way because Trump tells them, and they have decided that he is the only source of truth in a world otherwise run by evil Satanist child killers.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

The linked article was from last week. Read it. It was not a complete audit. Read it, the legislature is STILL trying to proceed with an investigation.

Read your own link.

Retarded? Really, Cam?

That article shows the depth of the distrust and how even getting data is split along party lines. Reminds me of the Mortgage and CBO debacle.

I did read the article you daft muppet. iT’s nOt a CoMplEtE aUdIT! What, pray tell, is a “complete audit”, ME? One can conduct any sort of audit looking for anything. Spell it out. What’s a “complete” audit? No vagueries.

- Doc

[Gadianton]

It is speculation only whether it means nothing/everything to Trump. It is speculation and generalization to say that it means nothing/everything to his broader base.

Very true. You're not going to like this, but I'll say it anyway, because I need to clarify. While I do think that there are those who believe the election was stolen, I do not believe that 75% of republicans believe the election was stolen. I believe that 75% of republicans are uniting under a banner. They will stay united under that banner long after any corrections are made to the system. I believe many of them are simply lying for the Lord, lying for what they perceive to be the greater good. "stolen election" can be interpreted metaphorically. Democrats have abandoned all American values and don't deserve to be in office. Obviously, you're not one of these. You're a totally unique case that I haven't yet encountered.

in real life, I know more republicans than I do democrats. I have yet to meet a republican who comes flat out and says the election was stolen. Not even Ajax and Subs say it. Ajax has, but then takes it back. Other than yourself, I have likewise not met a Republican who would not without hesitation, take Biden out of office and put Trump in, by whatever random means it can be accomplished. The stakes are that high for them. While I am generalizing and speculating, it's pretty much impossible to know the minds of hundreds of millions of people, or to fully know the mind of even one person.

Trump has said way too many things, beginning with declaring himself the winner long before the votes are counted, continuing with saying he won in states where he clearly lost, and it goes on and on, with statements that are all highly consistent with a person who aims to win at any price. So if he doesn't aim to win at any price, then he has a serious issue with allowing that interpretation to easily be made. And that itself is a critical flaw for anybody within a leadership capacity.

It's a contradictory campaign by nature. As Cam has pointed out, republicans themselves have advertised the safety of voting by mail because obviously, they need votes. You're an honest man, Mayan, because it follows that if elections are totally untrustworthy, that it's a waste to vote. It follows far more severely that if elections are flat out rigged and stolen, that voting is pointless.

My generalization does have something of a test hypothesis. If 75% of Republicans say elections are rigged and untrustworthy, and if record numbers continue to turn out and vote, then that tells me they're lying. If they really believe what they're preaching, then they should lose faith in the system as you have. I'd expect at least a 10% drop in republican turnout.

Dr. Cam, Evictus and Gummer say horrible sh*t about me on this board and their basis is repeatedly that I am stupid, and voting for Trump is the ultimate proof of my stupidity. I am paraphrasing, but you get the point. My conclusion is that they really are just making stuff up for their own personal reasons and their lies and conclusions have nothing to do with me, really. How could they?

All people, including myself, are susceptible of to in-group mentality that transcends evidence and fairness. All political parties use talking points, memes, and contrived advertising campaigns to find allegiance, as it's far easier to do that then follow real evidence. The truth is, election security is complicated enough, and the technology aspects are involved, such that the average person will never have a solid, evidence-based belief in election security. Even with my IT background, I can get closer than most people to having a granular, thoroughly evidence based belief, but I could ultimately also be fooled. The same republicans that I'm saying are "lying for the lord" aren't displaying any kind human fault that I haven't personally also displayed at some time, but they are displaying it in a highly coordinated manner that I've never seen before.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Even with my IT background, I can get closer than most people to having a granular, thoroughly evidence based belief, but I could ultimately also be fooled.

The sheer level of technical sophistication, and conspiratorial elegance, to pull off an election fraud of the kind of magnitude required to swing the 2020 election with millions of votes, or even ‘hacking’ into all the different systems states employ, in order to hand Biden the election (no down ballot elections, though, because why make Biden’s job easy!) is god-tier Hollywood fantasy.

And yet.

Here we are. The buffoonery on display both here and across various states is not just disheartening, but straight up anti democracy. It’s no surprise to me that ME prefers a dictator to a democratically elected official. Republicans prefer tyranny.

- Doc

[Mayan Elephant]

It’s no surprise to me that ME prefers a dictator to a democratically elected official. Republicans prefer tyranny.

- Doc

Liar.

That is not what I prefer and not what I said.

Doc, let me be very clear here - YOU are the point of the distrust, not machines. And lies like this are a big part of that.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

ME,

You are a Trumper through and through. Pivots. Obfuscates. Lies. Insults. Asserts.

But never any proof. Never any intention of backing up a claim.

WHAT. KIND. OF. AUDIT. IS. A. COMPLETE. AUDIT???

- Doc